Who to vote for?

LongRoad2Go

Well-Known Member
Imagine where Australia would financially be now if Tony Abbot had not been able to force a back down on the Rudd/Gillard Labor Governments carbon taxes.

… and how rich I’d be if invested in face masks and hand sanitiser, stinger and javelin missiles, etc, etc, etc.

20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing. Abbott was simply doing The Party’s bidding to keep their Coal Industry mates happy.

How better off would we be if half of that was rolled into alternative energy tech? Mining isn't dead, just shifting to other minerals - lithium, cobalt, nickel.

The question is an easy one to answer: are you happy with the current Government’s past history, responses, policies, and representatives? Or, do you reckon a change may bring something better?

The thing that concerns me, when sitting Governments get a mandate by being re-elected, they get much worse: more arrogant, corrupted, and dictatorial - look at the Howard period. ScoMo’s far right evangelists will make Howard’s Cabinet look like The Greens!
 

Swaggie

Moderator
The issue of refugees is a very complex moral and ethical problem that you n many ways has no right or wrong and can be , definitely should be dealt with in much better ways than than the current policies from both sides of government
The simplest place to start is ask why we have border security?
I look at it the same as why I lock the front door when I go to bed.
I don’t do it primarily to lock people out but the opposite, to protect what I have within
There should be a 10 year good behavior bond attached. Want to be a dirtbag in a Country of opportunity and a much better place than the one you left you’ll see your ass DEPORTED period…

I’ve been here for 54 years and have a clean slate it’s not hard…
According to the greens Larissa Waters just now they are planning to be working with the ALP. Sounds a bit like a coalition to me.
where’s the surprise there..
 

peterfermtech

Well-Known Member
… and how rich I’d be if invested in face masks and hand sanitiser, stinger and javelin missiles, etc, etc, etc.

20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing. Abbott was simply doing The Party’s bidding to keep their Coal Industry mates happy.

How better off would we be if half of that was rolled into alternative energy tech? Mining isn't dead, just shifting to other minerals - lithium, cobalt, nickel.

The question is an easy one to answer: are you happy with the current Government’s past history, responses, policies, and representatives? Or, do you reckon a change may bring something better?

The thing that concerns me, when sitting Governments get a mandate by being re-elected, they get much worse: more arrogant, corrupted, and dictatorial - look at the Howard period. ScoMo’s far right evangelists will make Howard’s Cabinet look like The Greens!
Your reply is a classical example of why the left and Labor fail at economic management. It has nothing to do with 20/20 hindsight face masks hand sanitiser. You are trying to compare apples with oranges.
Labor's plan was to penalise in order to destroy an existing and viable business (and associated businesses) in order to force people to move to an alternative which didn't even exist at the time. The coalition has always had policies that let the market decide.

To use an apple and orange analogy.
Labor wanted more people to eat apples so they tried to cut down the orange trees.
Coalition let people decide what to eat.
 

Krumpy

Member
To use an apple and orange analogy.
Labor wanted more people to eat apples so they tried to cut down the orange trees.
Coalition let people decide what to eat.
The coalition spent almost 10 billions dollars of taxpayer money on fossil fuel subsidies. That isn't giving people a choice what to eat.
 

peterfermtech

Well-Known Member
The coalition spent almost 10 billions dollars of taxpayer money on fossil fuel subsidies. That isn't giving people a choice what to eat.
You do know that every business in Australia that pays taxes get a percentage 27.5 -30% rebate on their fuel excise simply because it is included in the fuel cost which is a tax deduction.
 

Albynsw

Well-Known Member

I didn’t even read the article because I know how they typically go. They are measuring tax at the top tear level but what about all the tax that those style of businesses create as it trickles down through the subsidiary business and workforces. Take any of these big corporate companies regardless of mining or any other industry out of the economy and the tax revenue they create disappears too. You need to look at the big picture
Creative accounting to diminish tax paid is nothing new and is done at all levels of our economy from mum and dad investors right through our sports people and movie stars.
Of course it would be great if they paid more but it would be devastating if they left our shores altogether
 

Mick_Marsh

Active Member
Your reply is a classical example of why the left and Labor fail at economic management. It has nothing to do with 20/20 hindsight face masks hand sanitiser. You are trying to compare apples with oranges.
Labor's plan was to penalise in order to destroy an existing and viable business (and associated businesses) in order to force people to move to an alternative which didn't even exist at the time. The coalition has always had policies that let the market decide.

To use an apple and orange analogy.
Labor wanted more people to eat apples so they tried to cut down the orange trees.
Coalition let people decide what to eat.
Yes.
I was in one of those associated businesses at the time of the carbon tax and mining tax. Both affected the company. In response, the company just moved the business off shore.
I was out of a job and spent a year being a self funded unemployed person.
They paid well. I've never been able to get as well a paid job since. It cut down the amount of income tax I pay a lot. And I now have to budget so my contribution via GST has reduced.
All that money in the economy has now moved off shore.
 

John U

Well-Known Member
Take any of these big corporate companies regardless of mining or any other industry out of the economy and the tax revenue they create disappears too.
A bit like the auto industry hey.

People hate the banks. At least they pay their fair share of tax.
 

LongRoad2Go

Well-Known Member
Your reply is a classical example of why the left and Labor fail at economic management. It has nothing to do with 20/20 hindsight face masks hand sanitiser. You are trying to compare apples with oranges.
Labor's plan was to penalise in order to destroy an existing and viable business (and associated businesses) in order to force people to move to an alternative which didn't even exist at the time. The coalition has always had policies that let the market decide.

To use an apple and orange analogy.
Labor wanted more people to eat apples so they tried to cut down the orange trees.
Coalition let people decide what to eat.
You’re confusing economics with governing. The world has basically operated with varying degrees of economic liberalism since the Industrial Revolution – bringing great wealth to nations generally following conservative party ideals. Problem is, that devolved to the whole show being corrupted by big business and its ties with politicians. So, in wealthy countries like the UK and USA, there is huge economic division between the rich/poor, and significant environmental issues. Why? Because business operates to make profit, and has a sliding scale of morals answerable only to their major shareholders. Hence climate change, fresh water availability, and other issues.

That’s where Government comes in with policies to govern, hopefully basing economic decisions on broad data collection. In this case, 300 years of fossil fuel use created a problem, and there needs to be impetus to stimulate growth in alternative tech. Also, coal mining is hardly viable given current global trends, besides, mining is finite, Australia needs greater diversification in its economic portfolio to maintain well-being – digging shit out of the ground just isn’t gonna cut it for very long.

The Clean Air Acts in the UK did a similar thing – got rid of the infamous pea-soupers, improved health, and created new industries.

So, to use your apples and oranges analogy: lets replace SOME of those orange trees with apple trees, and give them stimulus to grow more branches (sectors in the economy). It’s not an all or nothing scenario, should be just a wind-down. Unfortunately, the LNP is stagnant on just about everything … politicians these days are scared to make decisions, particularly unpopular but necessary ones, because their Party is ‘everything’ … we only matter at election time. Change is almost always good - if only to learn from mistakes. What's that old saying: 'The only man who never makes a mistake is the man who never does anything.'
 

peterfermtech

Well-Known Member
So, in wealthy countries like the UK and USA, there is huge economic division between the rich/poor, and significant environmental issues. Why? Because business operates to make profit, and has a sliding scale of morals answerable only to their major shareholders. Hence climate change, fresh water availability, and other issues.
Of course this doesn't happen in communist countries like Russia or China
That’s where Government comes in with policies to govern, hopefully basing economic decisions on broad data collection. In this case, 300 years of fossil fuel use created a problem, and there needs to be impetus to stimulate growth in alternative tech. Also, coal mining is hardly viable given current global trends, besides, mining is finite, Australia needs greater diversification in its economic portfolio to maintain well-being – digging shit out of the ground just isn’t gonna cut it for very long.

The Clean Air Acts in the UK did a similar thing – got rid of the infamous pea-soupers, improved health, and created new industries.
Now that they have run out of coal reserves.
So, to use your apples and oranges analogy: lets replace SOME of those orange trees with apple trees, and give them stimulus to grow more branches (sectors in the economy). It’s not an all or nothing scenario, should be just a wind-down. Unfortunately, the LNP is stagnant on just about everything … politicians these days are scared to make decisions, particularly unpopular but necessary ones, because their Party is ‘everything’ … we only matter at election time.'
Unlike the Labor party that wanted to cut down the orange trees and then wait to see what trees grew.
Change is almost always good - if only to learn from mistakes. What's that old saying: 'The only man who never makes a mistake is the man who never does anything.'
Trouble is the Labor Party doesn't learn from it's mistakes
 

LongRoad2Go

Well-Known Member
Of course this doesn't happen in communist countries like Russia or China

Now that they have run out of coal reserves.

Unlike the Labor party that wanted to cut down the orange trees and then wait to see what trees grew.

Trouble is the Labor Party doesn't learn from it's mistakes
Communist countries? Ahh, don't think they've existed since Lenin died and Stalin took over the USSR, which dissolved in December 1991. China was never Communist either - both were and continue to be Totalitarian States, along with North Korea e.g. all three (Putinesca, Jingle Jangle, and Kim The Wonder Puppy) are leaders for life.

The Clean Air Acts were initially made in the 1950's and then revised a few times. The UK coal reserves are about 77Mt = 1.9 times it's annual consumption. So no, they haven't run out ... they just buy it from Russia and others.:eek:

Can't recall the rhetoric during the Abbott reign of stupidity - Putin shirtfront promise et al, but unlikely Labor would've simply stopped total flow overnight, more likely a drawdown (climate change pun intended).

Either way, relying on coal is a serious problem - it's stupid to kick the can of inevitable change down the road for others to take the advantage ... but that describes both sides of politics in Oz.

I agree with you on the last point - they have a recent history of not learning, though suggest it was more to do with appeasing the ultra-Lefts and Greens to maintain control of Government. If Albo wins by a landslide (highly likely), then the appeasement factor goes out the window.
 

typhoeus

Well-Known Member
. . . . . . . . . . I agree with you on the last point - they have a recent history of not learning, though suggest it was more to do with appeasing the ultra-Lefts and Greens to maintain control of Government. If Albo wins by a landslide (highly likely), then the appeasement factor goes out the window.
landslide unlikely, more likely to be a hung parliament. . . . and that will have its own set of problems.
 

peterfermtech

Well-Known Member
Either way, relying on coal is a serious problem - it's stupid to kick the can of inevitable change down the road for others to take the advantage ... but that describes both sides of politics in Oz.
I reckon tonight in Poland and Bulgaria there might be a few that up until now have had strong climate change aggendas would be happy to have a couple of bags of coal to burn.
 
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