dno67
Well-Known Member
Well there's your problem.. haha
The towing thread
- Thread starter hiluxdriver
- Start date
dno67
Well-Known Member
Who drew the imaginary correlation to implement test and tag and high vis shirts or reflective tape stuck on any vehicles, what studies proved we needed that crap and where's the studies that prove it's made any difference ?
I based my opinion on what I see on the roads and what I view is leading to a
growing problem, I wasn't aware that my opinion was going to change the law.
Don't worry, it won't be long and you won't be able to swim without wearing a
flotation devise. To save ourselves from ourselves.
I read today the SA government are considering swimming lessons for African migrants to educate them on the dangers of the ocean, after two drownings
in 12 months.
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GaryM
Well-Known Member
Did anyone say you were capable of changing the law? No. See I based my opinion, on what I read from your post.
And yep, OH&S is in homes already, I grew up fine without monstrosity pool fences and no neighbours kids drowned in our pool either. Its funny given your comment re: SA govco, that you still missed the point. It wasnt that no one does it, or that it cant be done, but why encourage it absent evidence of a real need.
dno67
Well-Known Member
Quote"
So real world be damned, if academically you can draw an imaginary correlation that could occur even though it hasnt, its time to act ?"
So what this time to act referring too ? Changing the law ?
Other than all drivers, truck drivers included, being required to pass a test and be appropriately licenced to tow, another issue which I think is a significant cause of caravan rollovers, and possibly other caravan accidents, is the weight ratio between tug and caravan. A loaded tug is generally around the 3 tonne mark, a 200 series 3.3, but the recently retired grey nomads setting off on their lap of the map, with little or no towing experience, hook up a 3.5 tonne block of flats and disappear down the rough as guts country road. A disaster waiting to happen. Talk about the tail wagging the dog. I would like to see some decent legislation passed to prevent this happening.
Tink
Tink
Aaron Schubert
Moderator
Some of you may have noticed the DCDC thread was closed just recently. This thread is going down the same path; please keep your discussions friendly, and leave all personal attacks out of it.
A number of posts have been removed
Aaron
A number of posts have been removed
Aaron
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GaryM
Well-Known Member
If the article is reliable, the opinion caravaners are a danger, is imagined. The sky is falling.
https://www.caravancampingsales.com.au/editorial/details/the-case-against-caravan-licensing-58345/
self regulation and common sense prevails it seems.
https://www.caravancampingsales.com.au/editorial/details/the-case-against-caravan-licensing-58345/
self regulation and common sense prevails it seems.
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hiluxdriver
Well-Known Member
Some fine arguments there but I find it hard to believe that statistics do not record at fault incidents involving vans. If a van is a potential contributer to an incident then it definitely should be recorded as such. And I'm sure most people want to do the right thing as far safety on road with their vans, but when you leave people to their own devices do they actually do them?
Most of the caravan accidents that you see come down to the design of the van, the specifications of the tow vehicle, the weight distribution in the van and speed.
A trailer with a fixed draw bar and the axle or axles just back a little behind centre is known as a "pig" trailer design. They are usually towed by an overhanging hitch i.e the distance between the rear axle of the car and the tow coupling. That distance is a lever and can and often is used by the trailer to lever the the car from side to side, particularly when the tow vehicle is not heavy enough or long enough in the wheelbase.
The heavy truck industry stopped using that design because of major stability problems back in the 1920s and adopted the fifth wheeler design. That design is still used today on semis and road trains. The coupling sits directly over the axles and the trailer wheels are right down the back. This means the front of the trailer can not lever the back of the truck sideways and it does not have a long heavy end behind the axles that it can swing around like a pendulum.
You should not have any problems towing a camper trailer. Learning to reverse may be frustrating but you are not going to kill anybody while doing that.
Yes camper trailers are a pig trailer design but the vast majority of them are short in length, low in height and usually don't have very much weight a long way in front of or behind the axles. They also don't have the huge wind catching side surface area that caravans have. Have you ever seen one jack knifed out on the highways? I have not seen or heard of one crashing in those circumstances but I can't say the same about caravans. They are crashing in ever increasing numbers these days now that we have relatively small tow cars like Landcruisers and utes that have 3500kg towing capacities. They can all safely tow many things that weigh 3500kg but a van of that size should not be on the list.
Take the time to read carefully through these articles, particularly the ones on caravan/tow vehicle behavior and suspension. https://caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/articles-index/
If you are towing with a Hilux then read the towing instructions in the car's handbook. Mine says a maximum of 1800 kg which would be ok for most camper trailers but it also says a WDH must be used for any ball weight above 90 kg. A WDH is a lever, not a spring. It lifts weight off the rear axle and redistributes in between the front wheels of the car and the wheels of the trailer. Heavier springs or air bags can not do that.
The big problem with them is if the angle between the car and the trailer exceeds a certain limit, the WDH, the tow bar or the car can be damaged. This rules them out in many off road situations leaving you stuck in some cases of having too much weight on the end of the chassis and not being able to do anything about it. Don't forget that distance between the tow ball and the axle is a lever. That is one of the reasons why many chassis have been bent while towing camper trailers.
BlueCollie
Well-Known Member
Maybe we could introduce personal logbooks while we're at it as I'm sure a lot of grey nomad accidents would be caused be fatigue rather than the caravan they're towing. Make it illegal for people over 60 to drive for more than 8 hrs a day.
Yeah dumb idea I know but this is where over regulation will lead along with speed limiters, breathalyser lockout systems, mobile phone jammers etc. All would save lives but do we really want to go down that path?
Yeah dumb idea I know but this is where over regulation will lead along with speed limiters, breathalyser lockout systems, mobile phone jammers etc. All would save lives but do we really want to go down that path?
dno67
Well-Known Member
Real world be damned, and imaginary correlation. You say.
Quote''
The results are in. Hereunder a summary of Sergeant Shenton's report on this very successful event.
Firstly, keep in mind this is just a snap shot in time. Any figures I give should not be taken as scientifically analysed in anyway. Just raw data collected from those that were weighed or spoken to over the two days.
Next, the actual going out and weighing of vans was carried out to try and alter the perception (well founded) that police do not target caravans for compliance. That perception was to be altered by allowing various members of social media forums, Facebook groups, written magazines, radio and so on to witness the activity first hand and report on it. The object being to spread the word as far as possible that the chances of being weighed have now increased. This was then going to drive conversations and discussion across social media to encourage more caravan users to think about their situation and start to make some changes. Hopefully, they themselves would then help and encourage new entrants into the market to consider weights and safety BEFORE buying their van, not after and realising they had stuffed up!
There is so much anecdotal evidence on the internet about all these big overweight vans tracking up and down the highways. I wanted to test that evidence and get some real facts. I also wanted to get an idea of how much your average caravanner knows and understands about ratings and weights
The operation was setup to coincide with a very busy period of traffic passing through the East Gippsland town of Newmerella near Orbost. Caravans were to be brought in at random to be inspected and weighed. Some did come down voluntarily after hearing about it on social media.
What happened?
Of the 80 plus caravans that passed through the site, 71 caravans were weighed. Only 1 motorhome surprisingly.
All were asked several questions
1. Do you actually know what your ratings are?
2. Have you ever weighed your rig?
3. Do you know what you weigh right now?
3. Can you provide an estimate of what you think you weigh right now?
4. Do you know where your compliance plate is?
Only 2 drivers knew all their ratings
Only 3 drivers had ever weighed their rigs
Only 3 drivers knew what they weighed at that moment.
ALL (except the 3 above) underestimated their weights as at that moment.
All knew where the compliance plate was. Two didnt have one attached.
Caravans were then weighed by my friends from Vic Roads. This was done by way of portable scales, all fully tested and certified.
GTM was measured hitched up.
Caravan was unhitched.
Ball weight was measured and ATM calculated.
These were then compared to plated ratings for the caravan and tow bar.
41 caravans were overweight in 1 or more category.
Most were within 10% of plated ratings.
5 were 20% over their plated ratings.
ATM was the most common issue, followed by actual ball weight and then tow bar capacity.
Highest over rating on ATM was 2880 kg on a plated ATM of 2600 kg.
Most over rating on ball download was 400 kg on max of 280 kg
Most over on Tow bar loading was 400 kg on max of 300 kg
Most ATM offences were in the 1500 kg to 2500 kg size vans. Camper trailers were the worst offenders. Loaded with bikes, kayaks, generators, tool boxes etc. Most of these had maximum ATM around 1650 and were consistently 100 plus kg over. These were also being towed by the smallest cars, many of them sedans that did not have the capacity to tow those weights. These were generally families of 4 or 5 and the car was also loaded up to max.
We did not have the time to weigh tow vehicles. However, those that were obviously an issue were given further advice. Overloaded tow vehicles are not included in the 41 offenders. If they had been I estimate at least another 15 or more offences against GVM and GCM would have been recorded.
Several with tinnies on the roof were weighed and none were significantly over on van weight. GVM/GCM may have been an issue.
Most notable tow vehicle offence was an older model Colorado towing a 5th wheeler. The 5th wheeler went to 3.5 tonne. The rear axle on the Colorado went 2.1 tonne. We did not unhitch. The Colorado also had boxes of tools, fuel and a generator in the back. They were full timers on the road and we had quite along chat.
Where possible, I had a look inside those vans that were overweight. The common issue here was that if you had placed items on the floor, under beds, on chairs and so on, then the van was overweight. If everything fitted into a proper cupboard and was not loose somewhere in the van, they were generally less likely to be overweight. One customer who was 350 kg over weight plead innocence as to how he could possibly be overweight. Then I opened his door and the first item at the door was an old steel 4 burner BBQ. 4 bikes to add to the 2 on the back, tents, swags, inflatable boats and lots of bags of clothes. He estimated he had 350 kg in his van. He had close to 700 kg if Tare was right.
Almost all were very surprised at what they actually weighed. Some just did not believe the scales.
Some of those using WDH believed that they allowed them to load more than ATM into the van because it would be transferred to the car via the hitch.
One person calculated what his payload could be by loading his van to ATM, then adding on what he measured his ball weight as because that came off the ATM when hitched. So ATM 3500, load to 3850 because the 350 kg was going on the tow ball and viola, back down to rated ATM. That was another long chat.
Of most concern was that most drivers had little idea of what they actually weighed. The fact we only had 41 offenders I think was more by luck than any sort of planning by the driver.
End Quote''
I recently heard that there's several Vic police cars now carrying scales to weigh trailers and there has also been a law change for carrying capacities of trailers being towed by vehicles with a GVM of 4.5t or higher.
You need to be licensed to drive a small truck of 4.5t GVM or over but can drive a 2.5t what ever towing 3.5t trailer or van and can happily get away with self regulation and common sense.
No problem there.
Quote''
The results are in. Hereunder a summary of Sergeant Shenton's report on this very successful event.
Firstly, keep in mind this is just a snap shot in time. Any figures I give should not be taken as scientifically analysed in anyway. Just raw data collected from those that were weighed or spoken to over the two days.
Next, the actual going out and weighing of vans was carried out to try and alter the perception (well founded) that police do not target caravans for compliance. That perception was to be altered by allowing various members of social media forums, Facebook groups, written magazines, radio and so on to witness the activity first hand and report on it. The object being to spread the word as far as possible that the chances of being weighed have now increased. This was then going to drive conversations and discussion across social media to encourage more caravan users to think about their situation and start to make some changes. Hopefully, they themselves would then help and encourage new entrants into the market to consider weights and safety BEFORE buying their van, not after and realising they had stuffed up!
There is so much anecdotal evidence on the internet about all these big overweight vans tracking up and down the highways. I wanted to test that evidence and get some real facts. I also wanted to get an idea of how much your average caravanner knows and understands about ratings and weights
The operation was setup to coincide with a very busy period of traffic passing through the East Gippsland town of Newmerella near Orbost. Caravans were to be brought in at random to be inspected and weighed. Some did come down voluntarily after hearing about it on social media.
What happened?
Of the 80 plus caravans that passed through the site, 71 caravans were weighed. Only 1 motorhome surprisingly.
All were asked several questions
1. Do you actually know what your ratings are?
2. Have you ever weighed your rig?
3. Do you know what you weigh right now?
3. Can you provide an estimate of what you think you weigh right now?
4. Do you know where your compliance plate is?
Only 2 drivers knew all their ratings
Only 3 drivers had ever weighed their rigs
Only 3 drivers knew what they weighed at that moment.
ALL (except the 3 above) underestimated their weights as at that moment.
All knew where the compliance plate was. Two didnt have one attached.
Caravans were then weighed by my friends from Vic Roads. This was done by way of portable scales, all fully tested and certified.
GTM was measured hitched up.
Caravan was unhitched.
Ball weight was measured and ATM calculated.
These were then compared to plated ratings for the caravan and tow bar.
41 caravans were overweight in 1 or more category.
Most were within 10% of plated ratings.
5 were 20% over their plated ratings.
ATM was the most common issue, followed by actual ball weight and then tow bar capacity.
Highest over rating on ATM was 2880 kg on a plated ATM of 2600 kg.
Most over rating on ball download was 400 kg on max of 280 kg
Most over on Tow bar loading was 400 kg on max of 300 kg
Most ATM offences were in the 1500 kg to 2500 kg size vans. Camper trailers were the worst offenders. Loaded with bikes, kayaks, generators, tool boxes etc. Most of these had maximum ATM around 1650 and were consistently 100 plus kg over. These were also being towed by the smallest cars, many of them sedans that did not have the capacity to tow those weights. These were generally families of 4 or 5 and the car was also loaded up to max.
We did not have the time to weigh tow vehicles. However, those that were obviously an issue were given further advice. Overloaded tow vehicles are not included in the 41 offenders. If they had been I estimate at least another 15 or more offences against GVM and GCM would have been recorded.
Several with tinnies on the roof were weighed and none were significantly over on van weight. GVM/GCM may have been an issue.
Most notable tow vehicle offence was an older model Colorado towing a 5th wheeler. The 5th wheeler went to 3.5 tonne. The rear axle on the Colorado went 2.1 tonne. We did not unhitch. The Colorado also had boxes of tools, fuel and a generator in the back. They were full timers on the road and we had quite along chat.
Where possible, I had a look inside those vans that were overweight. The common issue here was that if you had placed items on the floor, under beds, on chairs and so on, then the van was overweight. If everything fitted into a proper cupboard and was not loose somewhere in the van, they were generally less likely to be overweight. One customer who was 350 kg over weight plead innocence as to how he could possibly be overweight. Then I opened his door and the first item at the door was an old steel 4 burner BBQ. 4 bikes to add to the 2 on the back, tents, swags, inflatable boats and lots of bags of clothes. He estimated he had 350 kg in his van. He had close to 700 kg if Tare was right.
Almost all were very surprised at what they actually weighed. Some just did not believe the scales.
Some of those using WDH believed that they allowed them to load more than ATM into the van because it would be transferred to the car via the hitch.
One person calculated what his payload could be by loading his van to ATM, then adding on what he measured his ball weight as because that came off the ATM when hitched. So ATM 3500, load to 3850 because the 350 kg was going on the tow ball and viola, back down to rated ATM. That was another long chat.
Of most concern was that most drivers had little idea of what they actually weighed. The fact we only had 41 offenders I think was more by luck than any sort of planning by the driver.
End Quote''
I recently heard that there's several Vic police cars now carrying scales to weigh trailers and there has also been a law change for carrying capacities of trailers being towed by vehicles with a GVM of 4.5t or higher.
You need to be licensed to drive a small truck of 4.5t GVM or over but can drive a 2.5t what ever towing 3.5t trailer or van and can happily get away with self regulation and common sense.
No problem there.
BlueCollie
Well-Known Member
But having a license doesn't guarantee you won't overload the vehicle as your post demonstrated. The only deterrent would be instant loss of license and impounding the vehicle and trailer. Do that a few times and most people will start giving a shit about overloading pretty quickly.Real world be damned, and imaginary correlation. You say.
Quote''
The results are in. Hereunder a summary of Sergeant Shenton's report on this very successful event.
Firstly, keep in mind this is just a snap shot in time. Any figures I give should not be taken as scientifically analysed in anyway. Just raw data collected from those that were weighed or spoken to over the two days.
Next, the actual going out and weighing of vans was carried out to try and alter the perception (well founded) that police do not target caravans for compliance. That perception was to be altered by allowing various members of social media forums, Facebook groups, written magazines, radio and so on to witness the activity first hand and report on it. The object being to spread the word as far as possible that the chances of being weighed have now increased. This was then going to drive conversations and discussion across social media to encourage more caravan users to think about their situation and start to make some changes. Hopefully, they themselves would then help and encourage new entrants into the market to consider weights and safety BEFORE buying their van, not after and realising they had stuffed up!
There is so much anecdotal evidence on the internet about all these big overweight vans tracking up and down the highways. I wanted to test that evidence and get some real facts. I also wanted to get an idea of how much your average caravanner knows and understands about ratings and weights
The operation was setup to coincide with a very busy period of traffic passing through the East Gippsland town of Newmerella near Orbost. Caravans were to be brought in at random to be inspected and weighed. Some did come down voluntarily after hearing about it on social media.
What happened?
Of the 80 plus caravans that passed through the site, 71 caravans were weighed. Only 1 motorhome surprisingly.
All were asked several questions
1. Do you actually know what your ratings are?
2. Have you ever weighed your rig?
3. Do you know what you weigh right now?
3. Can you provide an estimate of what you think you weigh right now?
4. Do you know where your compliance plate is?
Only 2 drivers knew all their ratings
Only 3 drivers had ever weighed their rigs
Only 3 drivers knew what they weighed at that moment.
ALL (except the 3 above) underestimated their weights as at that moment.
All knew where the compliance plate was. Two didnt have one attached.
Caravans were then weighed by my friends from Vic Roads. This was done by way of portable scales, all fully tested and certified.
GTM was measured hitched up.
Caravan was unhitched.
Ball weight was measured and ATM calculated.
These were then compared to plated ratings for the caravan and tow bar.
41 caravans were overweight in 1 or more category.
Most were within 10% of plated ratings.
5 were 20% over their plated ratings.
ATM was the most common issue, followed by actual ball weight and then tow bar capacity.
Highest over rating on ATM was 2880 kg on a plated ATM of 2600 kg.
Most over rating on ball download was 400 kg on max of 280 kg
Most over on Tow bar loading was 400 kg on max of 300 kg
Most ATM offences were in the 1500 kg to 2500 kg size vans. Camper trailers were the worst offenders. Loaded with bikes, kayaks, generators, tool boxes etc. Most of these had maximum ATM around 1650 and were consistently 100 plus kg over. These were also being towed by the smallest cars, many of them sedans that did not have the capacity to tow those weights. These were generally families of 4 or 5 and the car was also loaded up to max.
We did not have the time to weigh tow vehicles. However, those that were obviously an issue were given further advice. Overloaded tow vehicles are not included in the 41 offenders. If they had been I estimate at least another 15 or more offences against GVM and GCM would have been recorded.
Several with tinnies on the roof were weighed and none were significantly over on van weight. GVM/GCM may have been an issue.
Most notable tow vehicle offence was an older model Colorado towing a 5th wheeler. The 5th wheeler went to 3.5 tonne. The rear axle on the Colorado went 2.1 tonne. We did not unhitch. The Colorado also had boxes of tools, fuel and a generator in the back. They were full timers on the road and we had quite along chat.
Where possible, I had a look inside those vans that were overweight. The common issue here was that if you had placed items on the floor, under beds, on chairs and so on, then the van was overweight. If everything fitted into a proper cupboard and was not loose somewhere in the van, they were generally less likely to be overweight. One customer who was 350 kg over weight plead innocence as to how he could possibly be overweight. Then I opened his door and the first item at the door was an old steel 4 burner BBQ. 4 bikes to add to the 2 on the back, tents, swags, inflatable boats and lots of bags of clothes. He estimated he had 350 kg in his van. He had close to 700 kg if Tare was right.
Almost all were very surprised at what they actually weighed. Some just did not believe the scales.
Some of those using WDH believed that they allowed them to load more than ATM into the van because it would be transferred to the car via the hitch.
One person calculated what his payload could be by loading his van to ATM, then adding on what he measured his ball weight as because that came off the ATM when hitched. So ATM 3500, load to 3850 because the 350 kg was going on the tow ball and viola, back down to rated ATM. That was another long chat.
Of most concern was that most drivers had little idea of what they actually weighed. The fact we only had 41 offenders I think was more by luck than any sort of planning by the driver.
End Quote''
I recently heard that there's several Vic police cars now carrying scales to weigh trailers and there has also been a law change for carrying capacities of trailers being towed by vehicles with a GVM of 4.5t or higher.
You need to be licensed to drive a small truck of 4.5t GVM or over but can drive a 2.5t what ever towing 3.5t trailer or van and can happily get away with self regulation and common sense.
No problem there.
Albynsw
Well-Known Member
I hate over regulation but don’t have a problem with needing accreditation to tow a trailer /caravan over a certain size/weight
I am sure many of us know people who have bought big boats or vans because they could afford it but have NFI what they are doing
It wouldn’t matter except they are endangering other people’s lives in the process
I am sure many of us know people who have bought big boats or vans because they could afford it but have NFI what they are doing
It wouldn’t matter except they are endangering other people’s lives in the process
GaryM
Well-Known Member
Has any of it resulted in more accidents harming 3rd parties?
The reason a 4wd for example is different from a truck, is the commercial nature of the use. Maybe the 4wd is used for commerce, but the truck is just about always commercial.
Why is that different? Same reason you cant enter a workshop without safety boots, if you can enter it at all. But my workshop, with all the same gear, I can work in there in thongs.
It seems whatever people do, works anyway.
It wouldnt be the first time that fearmongers were able to use pseudoscicnece as a justification for regulation, that turned out to be bunkum for one reason or another.
Cant speak as to why police or accident investigators dont record that level of detail in data. But I do find the insurance results compelling that there is no foundation for the fear. Its all imagined, probably from people stuck behind a caravan. Much like car drivers who think all truckies are inconsiderate, while they are regularly stuck behind them or otherwise enjoying their antics.
The reason a 4wd for example is different from a truck, is the commercial nature of the use. Maybe the 4wd is used for commerce, but the truck is just about always commercial.
Why is that different? Same reason you cant enter a workshop without safety boots, if you can enter it at all. But my workshop, with all the same gear, I can work in there in thongs.
The insurance stats will be reliable (cant speak for the claims MrLord made), you can bet on that. They have significant money on the line and base competitive policy and premium mixes on those figures, you can bet some serious number monkeys work on them.
It seems whatever people do, works anyway.
It wouldnt be the first time that fearmongers were able to use pseudoscicnece as a justification for regulation, that turned out to be bunkum for one reason or another.
Cant speak as to why police or accident investigators dont record that level of detail in data. But I do find the insurance results compelling that there is no foundation for the fear. Its all imagined, probably from people stuck behind a caravan. Much like car drivers who think all truckies are inconsiderate, while they are regularly stuck behind them or otherwise enjoying their antics.
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I dont think there should be a special towing licence, however, I think a combined vehicle weight licence as is now in place for trucks should be mandatory. It's ludicrous that someone who can get their licence in a micro Smart car is allowed to hitch up a 3.5 tonne van to a 200 series and legally drive off into the sunset.
Anyway, time to bash some truck drivers....I hate the ones driving tippers with dog trailers, they are a bunch of lunatics when they are empty.
Anyway, time to bash some truck drivers....I hate the ones driving tippers with dog trailers, they are a bunch of lunatics when they are empty.
GaryM
Well-Known Member
Its not the same, its not commercial. Its also ludicrous that anyone can drive a car for 50 hours without break, and fatigue is actually one of the fatal 4/5. Is it time for logbooks and mandatory rest times? Its one thing to declare rest is important, but logbooks declare when it must be taken too. Im not tired at all, but I need to take my blocks of 15. But at times I will be less ready to drive when books say I can, and timelines dictate I will.
Let alone the calculation and recording of longer rest times and away from truck hours (sleeper time) required. All that prep time before the weekend away, loading, changing fluids, kicking tyres, is truck time. You do your own bit of rewire the morning before heading out, truck time, record it and subtract it from your drive time. Stuck in traffic due to an accident, still counts. Let alone the 7 days, and 24 off. Bad luck if you just drove to work every day in the 5 days before, better get your trip over in one day, and abide the logbook in that day. Head off Friday night after work? I dont think so. Im not speaking for or against logbooks in trucks, just how inflexible they are, and what a commercial reality in the domestic scene would mean.
And fatigue is one for everyone, and stats show it to be a killer.
hiluxdriver
Well-Known Member
True that. Doesn't matter what you're operating.