New Defender, observations and opinions of the available information !

Albynsw

Well-Known Member
This is true but keep in mind the whole flex requirement is to keep wheels on the ground for no other reason than to provide traction and momentum, the traction is maintained through TC in modern 4wds therefore momentum is still maintained.
The issue with the new Defer is not flex but whether the electronics are going to be reliable which so far is not promising.
I still think the ultimate situation is to have all 4 wheels on the ground, apart from its better to be getting momentum through 4 wheels than 3 it is also much more stable and safer than to be see sawing and tripoding on 3
Off course the flip side to that is better onroad manners
 

CaptainBanana

Well-Known Member
If my Disco 1 lifts a wheel the car is already on very tricky ground and some extreme angles, if it is more then 1 foot off the ground it starts to feel unsettling it it is 2 feet off the ground the seat covers start to get sucked in....
In the D4 if wheel is 1 foot off the ground you hardly notice, if its 2 feet off the ground it starts to feel unsettled, 3 feet and the seat covers disappear.
I love it when people put forward opinions when they have absolutely no experience with the car and make assumptions from a screen.
Ask anyone on any disco 3 or 4 forum how capable the air suspension and electronics are and it is very different to the opinions of none initiated ;)

Your disco 1/2 is quite a bit narrower and shorter which is why you feel like it's more unstable but realistically it's probably still more stable than a disco 3 or 4 balancing on two diagonally opposite wheels especially when you end up on some hair pin switch back hanging off a mountain side in the High Country for example - I keep hearing this logic that Land Rovers defy physics but I still say that having three or four wheels on the ground is more stable then to regardless of what computer system is making the car go forward.
 

boobook

Well-Known Member
If my Disco 1 lifts a wheel the car is already on very tricky ground and some extreme angles, if it is more then 1 foot off the ground it starts to feel unsettling it it is 2 feet off the ground the seat covers start to get sucked in....
In the D4 if wheel is 1 foot off the ground you hardly notice, if its 2 feet off the ground it starts to feel unsettled, 3 feet and the seat covers disappear.
I love it when people put forward opinions when they have absolutely no experience with the car and make assumptions from a screen.
Ask anyone on any disco 3 or 4 forum how capable the air suspension and electronics are and it is very different to the opinions of none initiated ;)
I can tell you, I have owned a couple of 4wds with full independent suspension ( Pajero), 2 x solid axle and IFS / Solid rear over 40 years. Wheels in the air and then finding ground is not an assuring situation in any of them. The less it happens the better - period. Each to their own I suppose. I also wonder about the lack of travel too. While it's true I haven't owned an airbag suspension, I would have thought that dropping a wheel onto suspension a small amount and then it gives, is better than a suspension that has further to drop, then doesn't travel or give. Especially given tyres with low profile are at risk when pressure is lowered, further hardening a fall. Though as you say I have never experienced it. Though the many videos of Defenders with airborne wheels doesn't fill me with confidence, and Ronny commented on this exact point as a big negative.
 
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CaptainBanana

Well-Known Member
I've had two live axle four-wheel drives and one ifs vehicle and even the ifs vehicle was not that much fun picking up Wheels. I couldn't imagine what it would be like with the back of the car also being a brick like, as you say each to their own but I would rather be able to drive stuff with four wheels on the ground almost all the time.

Also that tedious traction control biting all the time will drive you insane if you drive a lot of Steep loose shale Rocky stuff. I think it's fair to say a lot of Land Rover owners try to put a positive spin on everything regardless of whether it's actually positive or not. Wheel lift is now a positive and no locking centre diff is now positive and no selectable diff lock is now also a positive - whilst they claim to be the leaders in off-road traction the rest of the motor industry doesn't seem to follow their design rules and they are going everywhere and even further than Land Rovers.

I will bet my last dollar bog stock JL Wrangler will go further off-road then the new defender with all the NASA Engineering.
 

discomatt

Well-Known Member
whilst they claim to be the leaders in off-road traction the rest of the motor industry doesn't seem to follow their design rules
Are you serious? other manufacturers have been following LR inclusions with a 2 -10 year delay since the 80's
First with 4 coils, first with disc brakes, first air bags, first ABS, first TC, first air suspension, first hill decent, first stability control, first 900mm wading depth, first 8 speed auto and the list will go on.
This is not always a good thing as it causes many reliability issues as we all know.
Yep a Wrangler may go further off road but it will also go further than a Prado, 200, or any commercial ute. A LR will also carry more, tow more, be safer on road, be more comfortable and arguably just as reliable as a jeep so I fail to see much of a comparison
 

CaptainBanana

Well-Known Member
My post was simply to say that what they're doing is making them more and more advanced but not more and more capable - I'd be surprised if a 200 series didn't go as far or further than this new Land Rover, you really don't need to have all this complexity it's just marketing spin for people who are going to buy it and never actually use it anyway. Hey if I'm wrong I'm wrong we will see as comparison videos are already appearing everywhere, the thing is the comparisons I've seen so far seem to suggest that old fashioned vehicles are much smoother and Less wonky over the same terrain as the new defender without the NASA systems.
 

discomatt

Well-Known Member
you really don't need to have all this complexity it's just marketing spin for people who are going to buy it and never actually use it anyway
Fully agree with this and to add to that it is suposed to make 4wding easier but IMO it actually has the opposite effect in that you must either be shown how to get the most out of the electronics or spend a fair amount of time off road learning it through trial and error.
Just jumping in and expecting to get the most out of it is just not the case, it takes time and practice
 

synchro

Member
The thing is that they have got so much right with the new Defender that it could be a fantastic 4wd. It relies on electronics and the touch screen more than any other 4wd, and has some great things as a result, but the worst fears of unreliable electronics are coming true. One fault affects everything. Even the towing electronics in that video were faulty because of the screen. :oops: Everything seems interlinked. Sheez.
I agree I would be mighty miffed in getting those issues having just picked up a new vehicle. I dont understand that if software updates were available, why were they not installed as part of the pre-delivery process. If I were a new LR buyer I would be rightly concerned about the check engine light but in reality it was most likely just a communications error and the dealer seemed to fix it clearly the codes. I don't believe that there was any actual issues with spark plugs etc - certainly changing them around would not fix a genuine issue - that makes me think communication error - when you drive these type of vehicles you have to think like you are operating a computer - switch off and then back often fixes things and if not a hard reboot.

As far as the screen goes it is clear that there is an issue with these as it comes up in quite a few issues - while the screen is used for some controls it is mainly an information center. Tow assist is not turned on or off on the screen (though it may say it is off if there is a screen fault) - the detects a trailer through the tow plug so no action via the screen is needed so I suspect tow assist etc was still working despite the screen fault.

You are right about the screen - it relays information to the driver and if it plays up it can create a lot of doubts in the driver's mind - LR need to get this aspect fixed as soon as possible.
 

synchro

Member
If this is the future of 4WD we are in trouble , to much tech and how unstable did it look on the dirt .
Its admirable that LR are developing future tech but certainly not a vehicle for remote Australian driving .
The tech in this vehicle has been around since 2004 - there is nothing new just further refined - has proven itself over the years, including in remote areas.
 

Albynsw

Well-Known Member
So basically the vehicle is already having software and hardware bugs from new. Imagine when they are 10 years old and have had there fair share of mud water and dust through them how you will go with gremlins appearing :eek: and either the replacement part costs or technician costs in sorting them out.
I don’t think it will be pretty
 

discomatt

Well-Known Member
The tech in this vehicle has been around since 2004 - there is nothing new just further refined - has proven itself over the years, including in remote areas.
Agree with this but in one respect that makes the faults in new models even more of an issue, they should be good to go with no issues.
If only LR could build with the same quality and reliability as Toyota but with the refinement and tech retained ...
 

cam04

Well-Known Member
We did all this in the 90’s. Any goose can twin lock a hilux or surf and lots did, but they roll over in the ruts with no front end travel. That is the reason why SAS exists. Travel counts.
 

Albynsw

Well-Known Member
Agree with this but in one respect that makes the faults in new models even more of an issue, they should be good to go with no issues.
If only LR could build with the same quality and reliability as Toyota but with the refinement and tech retained ...
That is the frustrating bit. JLR already have a reputation for being unreliable. Stupid stuff like techno glitches should be sorted out long before you go to market to give the brand some credibility
 

synchro

Member
Agree with this but in one respect that makes the faults in new models even more of an issue, they should be good to go with no issues.
If only LR could build with the same quality and reliability as Toyota but with the refinement and tech retained ...
I was agreeing with you until you mentioned Toyota - one brother has a Hylux and is constantly in getting issues fixed when it was new but it has settled down now as it gets older and the other had a new 200 series Sahara - first thing he had to do was replace the front suspension as it sagged on the way home from the dealer - it was such a heap of crap that he just sold it with 60K on it to buy a yank ute.

No - all "completely" new vehicles have their issues and you as a wanna be Toyota driver always seem to put them on a pedestal for some reason.
 

discomatt

Well-Known Member
Wanna be toyota driver, now that is funny, thanks for making me chuckle, I have been in need of a laugh lately.
The fact is Toyota although bland as and not even close to LR for comfort and driver feel is and has a way better record for reliability.
Although my mates 200 feels as good on road as my Disco 4 but I am on standard 100,000km old suspension and he is on about 12k worth of icon suspension with almost every part aftermarket .
What I don't understand is its always communication errors and electrical issues but I bet all the wires, plugs and computers are all Asian made the same as Jap manufacturers
 

CaptainBanana

Well-Known Member
Can you explain how that happened. I'm at a total loss as to how that is even possible,
Its not.

The only time I have ever seen nose-down 200 or 100 series is when they have gone the bullbar the winch the lights and left the stock coils which would be true of any car on coils or leafs for that matter - as if Toyota wouldn't replace notably sagging springs on a brand new standard vehicle
 

synchro

Member
Can you explain how that happened. I'm at a total loss as to how that is even possible,
Because the standard front suspension on the 200 series is crap - a well known issue. Not even replaced under warranty because it would just happen again so straight in for aftermarket front suspension just over 1000km from new.

Oh to address the Bannana's comment - no winch or bull bar at that stage.
 

Albynsw

Well-Known Member
What I don't understand is its always communication errors and electrical issues but I bet all the wires, plugs and computers are all Asian made the same as Jap manufacturers
Yes in this day and age you would think that aspect of it would be a given for being reliable. I wouldn’t think t would be that hard to secure the “ right” people to sort all of that shit out.

Porsche have their screen monitors made in Japan, when they had the sunami it delayed production in Germany
 
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