Lithium Second Battery

[ktmrider]

This may have been posted before and if it has been I am sorry. I am new to forums and I am not the best...

I am looking at replacing my 2x80Ah AGM battery's currently in the caravan for 1x 100Ah Stark Energy Lithium battery, I have heard good things from this company. This will free up a lot of weight for me.

I have been looking and speaking to one of the sales rep's at Stark Energy and they have been very helpful.

Is there anything that I should be aware of before making the switch?
I run a Victron 10 amp charger

Here's a link to the supplier : http://www.starkenergyco.com/12v-100ah-lifepo4

 

[smitty_r51]

I have been running a bare cell 60ah battery from evpower in WA for the last 4 ish years charging off the alternator (no chargers or anything)

No issues other than me flattening it twice and needing to recharge the batttery very carefully to get i back up to a safe charge level

 

[Jackolux]

I can't think of anything but how about you tell us what your setup will be .
I'm interested in fitting a Lithium Batt to my vehicle , I have talked to Lithium suppliers at shows , it's bloody confusing they all seem to say something different , the last bloke I talked to said his Batts had a built in Management System and could be charged from any existing charger or alternator

 

[silkwood]

I can't think of anything but how about you tell us what your setup will be .
I'm interested in fitting a Lithium Batt to my vehicle , I have talked to Lithium suppliers at shows , it's bloody confusing they all seem to say something different , the last bloke I talked to said his Batts had a built in Management System and could be charged from any existing charger or alternator

That's what I was told by the people at Amptron Batteries. I asked the question about anyone knowing of the company here, but got no response. KTMRIDER, based on the pricing Amptron offer, I'd at least have a chat with them before making a decision. If you get any further information, could you post it here? I'm expecting my AGMs to pack up any day (7 years old).

 

[mac_man_luke]

I like the idea but find they are a still a little bit expensive if your just running 1 battery but they do make more sense if you can replace 2xAGMs with 1xLithium

 

[Jackolux]

Yeah they are bloody expensive , it's the weight saving that I'm looking at for the back of a new Wagon ,
I was also told Lithiums don't like being connected together ,

 

[smitty_r51]

7kg, 60ah and i paid 440 ..although looking his prices have gone up...was also able to seperate the four 3.2v cells and put them back together in an "L" shape to better fit the space in the back of the wagon than a rectangle...just made a new frame out of 1.5mm alloy plate

Give Rod at evpower in WA a ring.

 

[Crashtastic]

Main things with Lithium are charging and discharge protection. The one you linked has a BMS which should take care of all that for you. Basically, if you run a lithium battery flat you will likley kill it. A lithium battery will supply good voltage right till 15-20% charge (then the BMS will kick in) while an AGM will only give you good voltage till about 40% charge, for a good quality one. There can be a risk of fire if lithium batteries are treated improperly.

If you have a lithium battery, you need either a built in BMS or a dedicated lithium charger, ideally one with cell monitoring. This is because Lithium batteries are made up of multiple 'cells' (much like the plates in a lead battery) which are 3.7v. The danger is each cell can be discharged/charged at a slightly different rate due to thermal gradients accross the battery, wiring, the quality of the packs etc. This means that while the nominal pack voltage reads at say, 30% charge, you maye have one pack at 3.0V (over discharged, bad) and the rest at a normal level, averaging the voltage out. Cell monitoring checks the voltage of each single cell and can charge each cell individually to 'balance' the battery.

Aside from writing off the battery, over-discharging any lithium cell is a huge fire risk. If a cell is overdischarged, they have a tendancy to 'swell', which can break the internal connections and potentially create a short. This short will heat up to a point that the cell is compromised, and then the lithium will react with the water in the atmosphere and make a big fire.

Over charging a lithium battery cell is a huge fire risk. This also causes swelling and over current can also overheat the pack, again compromising the internal structure and creating shorts. Again, remember that this goes for any single cell, so if your battery isn't balanced you run the risk of having one cell overcharged with the rest reading a lower voltage, making the nominal voltage less then the fully charged state - therefore your charger will keep pumping current into an already overcharged cell.

I have been running a bare cell 60ah battery from evpower in WA for the last 4 ish years charging off the alternator (no chargers or anything)

No issues other than me flattening it twice and needing to recharge the batttery very carefully to get i back up to a safe charge level

Please say your battery has a BMS built in?

 

[smitty_r51]

Please say your battery has a BMS built in?

Not built in but the system has one attached to keep the cells balanced

 

[stevemc181]

I've been running an EV-power 100a/h Lifepo4 battery for just over 4 years now, no dramas at all. It has cell balancers on the individual large format cells and is also hooked up via the EV-power BCU-PPak controller for LV/HV shutoff. I have been using a redarc BCDC1225-LV to charge it, and its done the job so far, but its not ideal. I need to reset the redarc to force it into boost mode every few days. When I get around to it, I am going to ditch the redarc and just charge from the alternator as the DC charger can be too slow for my liking.

The pic below is of the set-up when I had it in my pajero, I have now transferred it to my patrol and tucked it away in a draw wing.

The battery itself only weighs 14Kg and has performed flawlessly.

 

[Batts88]

Aside from writing off the battery, over-discharging any lithium cell is a huge fire risk. If a cell is overdischarged, they have a tendancy to 'swell', which can break the internal connections and potentially create a short. This short will heat up to a point that the cell is compromised, and then the lithium will react with the water in the atmosphere and make a big fire.

So would it make sense to fit a smoke alarm near one if it's in a canopy or van.

 

[Blue_haired_man]

So would it make sense to fit a smoke alarm near one if it's in a canopy or van.

A smoke alarm wouldn’t be much help I believe, once the reaction starts, there’s a very short space of time until kablamo. A lithium ion battery is much much more unstable compared to a lipo4. The latter being a much safer alternative due to its design and chemistry.
Cheers

 

[stevemc181]

So would it make sense to fit a smoke alarm near one if it's in a canopy or van.

You'd have to be seriously abusing a LifePo4 battery to cause it to catch fire, a couple of good vids on this site, showing some being severely abused. I don't know how much more you could abuse one than they do in the second video. They shoot it, burn it, crush it, severely overcharge it, LOL
http://sailevenstar.com/wonder-terror-lithium-batteries/

A standard lead acid battery can be dangerous if its abused also. I have a mate who ended up in hospital with his eyes bandaged for weeks after a standard truck battery blew up in his face. Yes, he did the wrong thing and created a spark while disconnecting some jumper leads, but the point is, any of the battery techs can be dangerous if you do the wrong thing with them.

 

[Crashtastic]

A smoke alarm is never a bad idea, but hardly a necessity. As long as you treat lithium batteries sensibly they're safe as houses, certainly no more dangerous then lead acid. The issue is people don't understand that they have to be treated differently then lead batteries

 

[Batts88]

A smoke alarm is never a bad idea, but hardly a necessity. As long as you treat lithium batteries sensibly they're safe as houses, certainly no more dangerous then lead acid. The issue is people don't understand that they have to be treated differently then lead batteries

What do you mean by differently ?

So would I have to do anything different to my set up other than what I plan doing at this point in time I have 2 agm batteries charging via a Redarc BCDC charger off the alternator also have 170w solar panel on the canopy when I'm parked. So when the agm's eventually die all I was going to do was replace the batteries with 2 lithium ones and the charger with a lithium compatible Radarc.

 

[ktmrider]

I can't think of anything but how about you tell us what your setup will be .
I'm interested in fitting a Lithium Batt to my vehicle , I have talked to Lithium suppliers at shows , it's bloody confusing they all seem to say something different , the last bloke I talked to said his Batts had a built in Management System and could be charged from any existing charger or alternator

I placed my order and bought the Stark Energy battery on Wednesday evening and it arrived Friday, perks of living in the same city as the supplier right?
I've had a play over the weekend and all seems to work well... They have a BMS in-built and I too was told that they are a direct replacement and so far so good.
I have a standard Victron 10 amp charger (lithium compatible) to charge the battery when at home. I then have a Ridge Ryder 20 amp DC-DC charger (I have been told to use the GEL setting with the Lithium battery) in the car when on the road.

I will post an update in a few weeks with how its going.

I opted away from the Amptron batteries as they seem to just be cheap cells off Aliexpress? (Link to them here) Seeing as the supplier says they are LISHEN cells here: (Link to supplier here). They also seem to make a few claims which I know are untrue, such as saying Lithium have a DOD of 100%...
Just my opinion from doing some research but happy for someone to tell me otherwise if they know better?

 

[Jackolux]

Thanks KTM rider , I will be interested to see how it all goes and what you think , you went with the 100A/h battery ?
Can I ask the price
I'm a FJR1300 rider , used to ride a KTM 400exc in the dirt .

Checked out that link $1300 for 100Ah ,

 

[ktmrider]

Thanks KTM rider , I will be interested to see how it all goes and what you think , you went with the 100A/h battery ?
Can I ask the price
I'm a FJR1300 rider , used to ride a KTM 400exc in the dirt .

I will keep the thread updated.
I went with the 100Ah battery here. $1300 including postage. super light for 100Ah. Main reason for the switch was the cycle life however. Whole lot of other perks as well...

I've just got a 250 sxf. Wouldn't mind moving onto a 2T as some stage. 1300cc hey... thats a whole lot of bike

 

[Crashtastic]

What do you mean by differently ?

Basically making sure you have some kind of battery managment system in place, whether it be a lithium compatable DCDC charger, or a system built into the battery itself

 

[shaun0]

Gday guys im going to be getting one of these Lithium LiFePO4 and im using a Redarc BCDC 1225D. Checked out a lot on line and you can generally get all of the 100ah ones for $1100 difference being some have higher standard charge currents then others. Im guessing thats why the one mentioned above takes a long time to charge. That Stark one is 20amps others 30amps and some much higher.
All of these have built in BMC looks like the All spark is same size as fusion but lighter maybe differnt packaging or terminals etc.
Stark 100ah 15.4kg 339mmx174mmx213mm Got a deal on facebook for $1150
Fusion V-LFP-12-100 14.3kg 330mmx171mmx215mm $1120
Allspark 100ah 10.9kg size 328mmx171mmx215mm $996

Doing this as im setting my 100 series up for an Engel 60 and draws etc in the back. Its got the stock twin starter batteries at the moment tempted to run one startup bat and then two 100ah Lithiums since they are light weight mind you not cheap. But im told im not suppose to have different type aux bat like an AGM and Lithium, if I get Lithium and want another its suppose to be Lithium as well?