Land Rover defender vs Ineos Grenadier New 4WDs for Australia

What would you buy - Defender or Grenadier?

  • Land Rover Defender

    Votes: 5 10.4%
  • Ineos Grenadier

    Votes: 43 89.6%

  • Total voters
    48

Albynsw

Well-Known Member

LongRoad2Go

Well-Known Member
Given Toyota's piss-weak attitude and dodgy, so-called 'GVM upgrade', Eneos really needs to take advantage of the lag and get into gear. Perhaps like the mines and agriculture sectors, I'm still waiting to see the release of the Ineos single cab ute.

Current price comparisons though, Ineos is in the 90K field ... bit expensive.
 

shanegtr

Well-Known Member
Given Toyota's piss-weak attitude and dodgy, so-called 'GVM upgrade',
That GVM upgrade wasn't for the benefit of the end consumer. Was only put in so Toyota could continue to sell the 70 series in Australia with changing safety laws/requirements for new vehicles (ADR 85 side impact). The GVM update was the bear minimum to achieve that requirement so it can be classified as a light truck
 

discomatt

Well-Known Member
That GVM upgrade wasn't for the benefit of the end consumer. Was only put in so Toyota could continue to sell the 70 series in Australia with changing safety laws/requirements for new vehicles (ADR 85 side impact). The GVM update was the bear minimum to achieve that requirement so it can be classified as a light truck
I will finish this post if that’s not to rude…..
As a light truck rather than making it safer for Toyota “ guests”
Sorry I know that will be deeply upsetting for some
 

LongRoad2Go

Well-Known Member
What are you referring to there?
I've been looking for the YouTube video done by an Aussie bloke just recently, but can't find it now.

Apparently, he has a late model 79 Series and his mate just took ownership of the new 79 Series release with PCS and the so-called GVM upgrade. He compared the part numbers, etc and it seems the 'upgrade' consists of nothing more than executives signing-off that the 'new' vehicle is capable of carry more, but with no physical improvements i.e. all done on paper.

The bloke went on to say how many people who paid for after market GVM upgrades have therefore been ripped off.

If true, it opens a can-o-worms: car versus light truck classification differences. Wonder if there are grounds for a class action?
 

Albynsw

Well-Known Member
Righto I know what you mean now and how its getting some guys panties in a twist.
The 79 has much more capacity than what is is plated for standard so the classification change is an arbitrary figure that they altered to suit the change in legilation.( remember also consumer registration costs are effected by stated capacty too)
Have a look at aftermarket GVM upgrades for other utes on the market compared to a 79. Some can only achieve a few hundred kg upgrade whereas a 79 can go an extra 750kg with just a suspension change, that demonstrates the reserve capacity built into them the others don’t have.
The 70 is a low volume production vehicle, the annual build numbers is about equivalent to a month of Hilux’s, it is teatering on end of production life as it was so they are not investing big coin (as @shanegtr posted) into R@D like they do with other models. The last safety upgrade with the singlecab there was consideration of shelving the whole series rather than make changes.

Have a look at say a Fuso Canter, the exact same vehicle goes from 3.5t GVM to 8.5t without changing a single part except a differnt stroke of your pen, the Hilux is plated to tow 250kg less in Australia than what the same vehicle does in other countries, again just a stroke of a pen

The 79 series ethos makes a lot more sense if you look at it as a truck step down from the next category of Hino, Fuso Canter etc Whereas the other utes like say Hilux, BT50 etc get their DNA from the other end of the spectrum with passenger vehicles
 
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boobook

Well-Known Member
I can't see why there is a fuss from some people. People who probably never will buy a 70.

  • The new 70's are no less safe than the ones sold before November, in fact, they are safer.
  • Toyota has been upfront and complied with the law in full.
  • The alternative was to stop selling it given the difficulty in making the doors and body shape compliant.
  • Many 70 owners upgrade the GVM, even before registration anyway.
  • Most 3.5T plus trucks have similar or lower safety specifications. That's why the regs are different.
  • No one forces customers to buy, and with full disclosure, those customers could walk away.
  • The 70 is a commercial vehicle, the fact that it is also a great recreational vehicle makes it overlap that boundary. It has always been sold as a commercial vehicle.
  • Many rarely see a public road.

Similar laws affected the Mazda 2 and CX3, which were 5 star and as of Jan 1 continue to sell but unrated from ANCAP.

It would have been nice to have the new 5-star compliance, I am sure Toyota tried everything they could to get that. But clearly, they could not do that.

If it doesn't suit, then buy elsewhere. As I say, at least a few critics have declared they would never buy one anyway.
 

cam04

Well-Known Member
I've been looking for the YouTube video done by an Aussie bloke just recently, but can't find it now.

Apparently, he has a late model 79 Series and his mate just took ownership of the new 79 Series release with PCS and the so-called GVM upgrade. He compared the part numbers, etc and it seems the 'upgrade' consists of nothing more than executives signing-off that the 'new' vehicle is capable of carry more, but with no physical improvements i.e. all done on paper.

The bloke went on to say how many people who paid for after market GVM upgrades have therefore been ripped off.

If true, it opens a can-o-worms: car versus light truck classification differences. Wonder if there are grounds for a class action?
Morons. It was never an ‘upgrade’ it was a change of around 50kg on the paperwork to satisfy an arbitrary number.
Have a look at a 2500 ram/f250/Silverado. 2500 is literally their payload figure in pounds all over the world. But in Australia they are sold with a 700 odd kg payload to keep them under 4495kg GVM and able to be driven on a car license. Talk to your dealer and magically it can be registered as a light truck and you can have your 2500 lb payload back - and a zero alcohol limit.
Toyota announced years ago it was this or no 78 at all. Good on them for playing the game.
 

boobook

Well-Known Member
Morons. It was never an ‘upgrade’ it was a change of around 50kg on the paperwork to satisfy an arbitrary number.
Have a look at a 2500 ram/f250/Silverado. 2500 is literally their payload figure in pounds all over the world. But in Australia they are sold with a 700 odd kg payload to keep them under 4495kg GVM and able to be driven on a car license. Talk to your dealer and magically it can be registered as a light truck and you can have your 2500 lb payload back - and a zero alcohol limit.
Toyota announced years ago it was this or no 78 at all. Good on them for playing the game.

I'd trust a bunch of engineers that designed it more than a youtube backyarder.

Maybe things like pre-collision braking ( new to the higher GVM model) mean it is guaranteed to stop faster and therefore carry more load. Who knows?

Maybe the upgrades a few years ago contributed. Maybe the brakes are different. Maybe the Engine behaves differently under brakes.

Who knows? Oh I know .... Toyota does.
 
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rob_macca67

Well-Known Member
I can't see why there is a fuss from some people. People who probably never will buy a 70.

  • The new 70's are no less safe than the ones sold before November, in fact, they are safer.
  • Toyota has been upfront and complied with the law in full.
  • The alternative was to stop selling it given the difficulty in making the doors and body shape compliant.
  • Many 70 owners upgrade the GVM, even before registration anyway.
  • Most 3.5T plus trucks have similar or lower safety specifications. That's why the regs are different.
  • No one forces customers to buy, and with full disclosure, those customers could walk away.
  • The 70 is a commercial vehicle, the fact that it is also a great recreational vehicle makes it overlap that boundary. It has always been sold as a commercial vehicle.
  • Many rarely see a public road.

Similar laws affected the Mazda 2 and CX3, which were 5 star and as of Jan 1 continue to sell but unrated from ANCAP.

It would have been nice to have the new 5-star compliance, I am sure Toyota tried everything they could to get that. But clearly, they could not do that.

If it doesn't suit, then buy elsewhere. As I say, at least a few critics have declared they would never buy one anyway.
I'd love to know what the vehicles actual cost is vs what it is sold for... there must be a HUGE profit from them... Here's dreaming, but I wonder if they lowered the price to a more reasonable price, would this stop all those complaining about them?

I still like the Troopie and would consider one, but for me, the price is a concern at this point in time, considering what most people do to them just to make them suitable to drive in. A secondhand one might be an option but then again, the Dualcab Ineos might turn out a better option (more space for extra fuel/water underneath) ... maybe?
 

boobook

Well-Known Member
I'd love to know what the vehicles actual cost is vs what it is sold for... there must be a HUGE profit from them... Here's dreaming, but I wonder if they lowered the price to a more reasonable price, would this stop all those complaining about them?

I still like the Troopie and would consider one, but for me, the price is a concern at this point in time, considering what most people do to them just to make them suitable to drive in. A secondhand one might be an option but then again, the Dualcab Ineos might turn out a better option (more space for extra fuel/water underneath) ... maybe?
I can only see them going up Rob. Supposedly a 3 - 4 year waiting list, 50-year-old design and they literally can't make enough of them. I'll bet Toyota makes more from one 70 than from 50 yaris's

People forget it is designed, sold and purchased as a commercial vehicle, and mines and construction sites buy them in licks of 1000. The people who's needs overlap with that unfortunatly are not core.

I'll bet BHP get them for a lot less than the average punter buying 1.

Maybe the Grenadier will change that. I think that looks closer to my needs. Maybe others have similar views and the market will turn from 70's
 

Albynsw

Well-Known Member
The 70 is popular in the recreational market warts and all purely due to the lack of a viable alternative. Perhaps these guys might tap into those sales to help them along. It has been a missed opportunity for the likes of Jeep/ Nissan and Landrover. Maybe it isnt a market big enough to worry about ?
 

rob_macca67

Well-Known Member
I can only see them going up Rob. Supposedly a 3 - 4 year waiting list, 50-year-old design and they literally can't make enough of them. I'll bet Toyota makes more from one 70 than from 50 yaris's

People forget it is designed, sold and purchased as a commercial vehicle, and mines and construction sites buy them in licks of 1000. The people who's needs overlap with that unfortunatly are not core.

I'll bet BHP get them for a lot less than the average punter buying 1.

Maybe the Grenadier will change that. I think that looks closer to my needs. Maybe others have similar views and the market will turn from 70's
Probably True...
Though I can see those old solid axle 4WD's continue to hold or if not increase in price for those that want something simple w/o all the bells and whistles and just put money into restore them to make them as reliable as they can be. Would be a small section of the market that would prefer to do this but I guess at this point in my life I would have to include myself as I'm not one for all the bells and whistles and want something basic for those remote trips I enjoy doing... That will change as I get older and no longer do that sort of travelling (or the Govt forces people down a certain path)
 

callmejoe

Well-Known Member
They are still saying high $90k to $110.
That's alot of coin for a "untested" 4wd. I'm quite keen on them but knowing I can buy another Y62 all spec'd for the same coin and set up exactly to my taste will me think twice at that price, new or proved.
 

smitty_r51

Well-Known Member
They are still saying high $90k to $110.
That's alot of coin for a "untested" 4wd. I'm quite keen on them but knowing I can buy another Y62 all spec'd for the same coin and set up exactly to my taste will me think twice at that price, new or proved.
Configurator is online with pricing, and yeah, you are looking at the $110-$130k mark with an unknown brand, unknown support and i would guess very little 3rd party products. seem to have pitched it in price at the LR defender, you would think they would be pitching it at the 79cruiser , especially with that dropping the v8
 

LongRoad2Go

Well-Known Member
Agreed, they're not playing the long game - so most farmers, miners and NGO's won't be interested in them either at that price, even if/when they eventually release the ute version. Sadly, it looks like they'll be just another Toorak/Teneriffe Tractor or Bronte Buggy.

Am disappointed because it was gonna be an option.
 
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