e10 fuel

Mainsequence

New Member
I couldnt search for this in the forum because it doesnt like search words of less than 4 characters...so I had to start another thread, sorry if this has been brought up already.

Recently after a bit of research I fuelled the rav up full tank with the new e10 fuel. The Toyota site says its ok for the Rav. Supposedly some people are getting some very good value out of the e10 too, increased mileage etc. I havent heard/read anything that says it shouldnt be used.

However, since fuelling up, I've noticed a fuel smell coming from the Rav, as if there is a bad fuel leak. At first I thought it was my XR 600, so I wasnt concerned (it leaks like a sieve!). I checked under the Rav, throughout the engine bay, nothing. It's also using the right amount of fuel, so it doesnt seem to be a leak.

It occured to me today that it has only happenned since the new fuel.

Can anyone comment on their experience with e10, and whether it would cause such a problem?
 

Muddy Waters

New Member
Hello Mainsequence,

I have run e10 a couple of times in the Wrangler and there wasn't any real issues. I didn't notice too much of a difference and definately no smell. I would go back to unleaded and see if the smell goes away.

Muddy.
 

bludnut

Member
I'm with Muddy on this one. If the smell goes away once your back on unleaded then its obviously the e10, why it would create a smell i don't know. Can it make the fumes permeate the pores of rubber hose? I don't know....

cheers

Jason
 

Daz

New Member
I filled up with Shell E10 a couple of days ago. I've had a problem with the engine being sluggish (to the point of stalling) under 2000rpm when the engine is cold. After my first drive from work to home (100km), I started the car the next morning. To my amazement, the problem has stopped.

Daz
 

Mainsequence

New Member
Thanks for the replies.
We filled up with unleaded now, and the smell has almost gone. There is probably a little residue left so I dont expect the problem to go away for another week or so.
I wont be running e10 again, we didnt see any noticable increase in economy - in fact I think we got about 40km less out of this tank. I also had the cold-start issue. Realistically I only tried it because I heard rumours you could drastically increase economy. At 4c/l cheaper its not worth the hassle (and the $1.80 or so per tank).
 

djolsentours

New Member
I run e10 in my commodore all the time, because I live in a sugar growing area and wish to support the carbon neutral option for fuel that sugar provides. I too notice a slight smell when the car is running but it isn't bad and has caused no problems. Ethanol lowers the energy density of fuel slightly so economy will be slightly worse.
 
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Mainsequence

New Member
I *might* give it another go one day, but its the second tank since the e10 and the odour is still pretty strong. The economy on the last tank came back up to normal but the engine is still running a bit rough.

I mentioned my experience to the cashier at the local servo (so if anyone else asks she can say that someone had a problem), and she said her 93 Camry reacted really badly to it, to the point where she had to get it serviced.

A friend of mine had her Lancer completely die after running e10 too, not saying this is linked, but just worth considering.

For now I might wait and see if there are going to be any changes, I'd like to run it but not if it is going to be detremental to my particular vehicle. I might run it in my XR600 just to see what it does, it runs badly anyway :)
 

jgcertified

New Member
I ran it once in an '89 Camry, and something didn't like it, but I picked up an awesome bearing knock at startup :-D
 

xracer

New Member
E10 usage

I run E10 in my 3litre (petrol) in case you get confused , Patrol with no noticable problems and it seems to get better fuel economy and produce slightly more power if thats possible from this motor. I have also found out that if you are going to run E10 make sure you get it from a large company or at least a servo that has a big fuel usage as it absorbs the condensation inside the storage tanks if not used a lot and this water gets into your fuel system and cause a whole range of problems. Just maybe you had some moisture in your tank when you put the E10 in and it absobed it and has spread it through your fuel system and thats not helping with your problems ?
 

Mainsequence

New Member
Well, a bit of an update.
A few weeks ago the thing started running pretty badly. Then two tanks ago we got 350 or so litres for the tank, this worried me (usually get 420). Then last tank, the needle dropped to 1/4 full and I hadnt hit 200k.

Dropping some stuff off at the inlaws I left the Rav running (wanted to make a quick exit), ran back out to the car because I forgot something...nearly had heart failure when I see some "liquid" dripping very rapidly from the engine bay. Turns out it was fuel. RACQ guy reckoned I had shat two injectors. There was also a pool of fuel being collected in a section below the injector rail. Supposedly we were very lucky the thing didnt go up in flames, the exhaust is right below where the fuel was pooling. The mechanic is hoping it isnt that, but is yet to get back to me - decent guy, wont rip me off.

I dont know if I can make the correlation between running a tank of e10 and the problems starting practically immediately, but it seems like too much of a coincidence to me. The Rav ran without any problem whatsoever until I ran the e10, then straight away we started having trouble. Its been mentioned to me that it could have effected the seals or hoses, this seems plausable I suppose.

I've heard a lot of people and reports since then saying they are very wary of e10 now. I certainly wont be game enough to run it.

I'll post the results of the fixup and what the mechanic says, just to see if he can clarify something.

Edit: $555, Injector clean and flow test, carby cleaner (!!??), and new plugs. The extended warranty we spent $1000 on was useless, they found a reason not to pay up (why am I not surprised?)
Once again, I havent got proof that it was the e10, but magically the rav is running like a dream again today. Even today a heap of people have commented on their bad experience with e10.
 
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Mrw82

New Member
hi everyone this is my first post on here and its gonna be a long winded rant (but informative).
I work for a company who perform the maintenance and pump repairs at service stations so I have a bit of insider knowledge ;)

personally I dont use E10 in my work van, let alone one of my own cars. the reasons why are:
Ethanol is a very good cleaning agent, so good that when it is in the underground tanks at a servo it removes all the build up of crap from the walls of the tanks and pipes, the pumps have extra filtration on them to stop this 'crap' getting through to your car but the filters are constantly getting blocked (been to a shell servo lately and had the E10 pump run really slow on you? blocked filter) we replace the filters and within a week they need doing again and now just once or twice once E10 was introduced, this is continous for the past 12 months.

If you have a new or newish car its probabaly a good thing because it will keep the system clean but if your vehicle is more than 10 years old do you really want to stir up all the potential crap in your tank and send it through the system. blocked filter will be your problem, but its also breaking down any buildup in the lines, carby, injectors etc... AFTER the filter!

older vehicles rubber hoses, orings, seals etc are not compatible with ethanol the rubber will perish and cause leaks. I personally have doubts about compatibilly of new vehicles too, when we dismantle a pump or valve (which have been approved to run upto 10% ethanol blend) at a servo for repair on regular ULP generally we can reuse orings/diaphragms etc... but on E10 we do not disassemble a component unless we have replacement parts because anything rubber will have swollen up and cannot be reassembled.

also 10% ethanol will increase the octane rating of the fuel by 4 points, which is a good thing. if the oil co's start with a 91ron octane fuel (which all except one do), add ethanol and you get a 95ron octane fuel (and usually 2 cents per litre cheaper than 91)
but BP start with a 87 ron fuel, add ethanol to bring it up to 91.
and the only difference between shell vpower and vpower racing is 5% ethanol to bring it up by 2 points from 98ron to 100ron octane.

the other issue with E10 is water. all underground storage tanks get water in them. fact of life. with ulp and diesel water will settle on the bottom of the tank and can be measured and pumped out when required.
Ethanol will attract the water to it and blend with it making the water level in the tank very hard to detect, once the water level reaches .05% of the fuel level 'PHASE SEPARATION' occurs which is when the density of the water/ethanol mix becomes heavier than the fuel and separates to the bottom of the tank.
by the time a site can detect water in the E10 tank the chances are that phase separation has already occured. so what does this mean? it means the bottom quarter of the underground tank is an acidic water/ethanol blend, guess where the pump pickus are, yep, the bottom quarter of the tank, which means whats coming out of the nozzle potentially could be the end of your engine! :eek:

now I dont want to go scaring anyone because the chances of it getting that far are slim, but it has the potential. this is just my opinion from what I have learnt and seen from being in the industry

cheers all, Mark.
 

Zerrath

New Member
coldstart issue with E10

yeh one of my mates had that problem. we ended up draining the entire 80L tank and cleaning out the carby and fuel hoses. didn't know it was the E10 fuel doing it but once we got the premium unleaded into it the problem cleared up.

-Brodie
 
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bmurray2250

4x4 Earth Contributer
I have been using E10 in my Prado 1998 3.4L V6 and it appears to run ok. I did noitce a loss in power on the first tank load but that returned after 1000KM or the 2nd tank. The fuel ecomony besides that first load is the same a unleaded. I use Flashlube in my fuel also which helped and has quiten down the motor. My brother also noticed that too on his 2 vehicles. I haven't noticed a smell change but I generally don't hang around the exhaust pipe as the gas from unleaded fuel has some health effects
 

Blue Dog

New Member
Had a mate fill my F150 5.8 with it once on a trip back from coolum to sydney I normally run 98 and get back to newcastle before needing to top up to get back to home.
Well with the E10 we just made it to Coffs before I had to fill up and the truck was running like crap pingking and no power,

I also get alot of bikes in to work that have problems with water issues it has, and get quite a few cylinder and head repairs from people using it on their MX bikes.
 

cptmud

New Member
From what i have seen and read, there are quite a few issues with ethenol based fuels.
Ethanol is an Alcohol Fuel...
Ethanol is an alcohol renewable fuel, made from corn or grains, which is used to oxygenate gasoline fuel at the pumps. See About Ethanol Fuels & Ethanol History
Ethanol is hygroscopic (will absorb water), and is an excellent solvent (dissolves materials).


Due to ethanol's affinity for water, phase separation and water contamination occurs very quickly.


Ethanol Fuel - What's the dangers?
Simply put, ethanol is an excellent SOLVENT (dissolves plastic, rubber, fiberglass and more), and unlike MTBE ethanol will ABSORB WATER, which can cause serious problems to some engines.
The presence of ethanol in fuel is rapidly rising.


At this time, most gasoline stations have already switched over to E10 ethanol-blended fuels, replacing MTBE, for oxygenating fuel.
Based on the laws passed in 2006 (Clean Air Act) and other EPA and government laws, ethanol blend fuels now are present in over 50% of our fuel supply.

You may not realize, that you are already buying fuel that contains ethanol...


The gas pumps in several states still are not required to disclose that the gasoline contains ethanol alcohol!
Examples of reported damage, determined to be caused by E10 fuel.

E10 Parts Damage
1. Wear and damage of internal engine parts.
2. Damage to metal, rubber, and plastic parts of fuel system.
3. Corrosion of metal parts in fuel system and engine.
4. Deterioration of elastomers and plastic parts.
5. Deterioration of non-metallic materials.
6. Fuel permeation through flexible fuel lines.
7. Drying, softening, stretching and/or cracking of rubber hoses, seals and other rubber components.
8. Oxygen sensor damage.
9. Damage or premature disintegration of fuel pump.
10. Carburetor damage, including clogging.
11. Dirty and clogged fuel filters.
12. Clogging and plugging of fuel injectors.
13. Destruction of certain fiberglass fuel tanks.
14. Removal or fading of paint and varnish (both internal and external parts of engine).
15. Piston/bore failure through knock/pre-ignition.
16. Piston ring sticking.
17. Unsuitable ignition timing resulting in ignition failure.
18. Gumming-up of fuel injectors, carburetors, etc. due to release of accumulated deposits in engine from ethanol alcohol's solvent properties.


E10 Drivability Issues:


1. Engine performance problems.
2. Hard starting and operating difficulty.
3. Hesitation and lack of acceleration.
4. Stalling, especially at low speeds.


Ethanol Gasoline - General Problems/Issues:


1. Phase separation (P/S) of gasoline.
2. Water contamination (W/C) of gasoline.
3. Attract, absorb and hold moisture in fuel tank.
4. Increased occurrence of lean, water-diluted fuel.
5. Vapor lock or fuel starvation.
6. Drop in octane (after water absorption, P/S and W/C occurs).
7. Decreased fuel efficiency and mpg.
8. Decreased life cycle of parts and engine.
9. Decreased shelf life of gasoline.
 
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cptmud

New Member
BEFORE THE USE OF E10 IN MOTOR VEHICLES NOT ON THIS LIST YOU SHOULD CONSULT YOUR HAND BOOK OR MANUFACTURER TO CHECK IF IT IS SUITABLE. DO NOT USE ETHANOL BLENDED FUELS IN ANY MOTORCYCLE OR LAWN MOWER.
Australian Manufacturers All petrol engine vehicles since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on E10 except as listed below.


Holden The following vehicles DO NOT operate on E10 fuel:Apollo (1/87-7/89), Nova (2/89-7/94), Barina (1985-1994), Drover (1985-19987), Scurry (1985-1986), Astra (1984-1989).

Ford All petrol engine vehicles since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on E10 except as listed below. The following vehicles may not operate satisfactorily on E10 because of drivability concerns:Focus (2002-2004), F-series (1986-1992), Ka (ALL) Maverick (1988 1993), Mondeo (ALL), Transit (1996-2004).The following models DO NOT operate satisfactorily on E10:Capri (1989-1994), Courier 2.0-2.6 (All), Econovan (pre-2002), Festiva (ALL), Laser 1.3, 1.5 & 1.6 (ALL), Raider (ALL), Telstar (ALL).

Mitsubishi All petrol engine vehicles since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on E10:Mitsubishi vehicles with carburettor fuel systems manufactured before 1991 may experience hot fuel handling concerns and may experience a lower level of durability in some fuel system components.

Toyota All Toyota models manufactured locally or imported by Toyota Australia since1987will operate satisfactorily on E10 fuel except as listed below:The following models will not operate satisfactorily on E10 fuel due to material compatibility issues:Camry with carburettor engines pre July 1989 and Corolla pre July 1994.Supra – pre May 1993, Cressida – pre Feb 1993, Paseo – pre Aug 1995, Starlet – pre July1999.Land Cruiser – pre August 1992, Coaster – pre Jan 1993, Dyna – pre May1995 Tarago – pre Oct 1996, Hilux, Hiace & 4 Runner – pre Aug 1997, Townace – pre dec 1998.

Vehicle Importers All Alfa Romeo vehicles imported since 1998 must run on minimum 95 RON fuel (premium unleaded fuel).

Alfa Romeo Post 1998 Alfa Romeo vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E5 ethanol blended fuel ( European Standard EN 228) E10 ethanol blend is NOT recommended as there are material compatibility and drivability issues. E10 may be used in emergency situations.E10 ethanol blended petrol is not recommended for earlier model Alfa’s due to material issues

Audi All current Audi vehicles must run on minimum 95 RON fuel (premium unleaded petrol).All Audi models since 1986 will run satisfactorily on E10 except as listed below:Audi A3 1.8L(Engine code “APG” 2000 onwards) and A4 2.0L(engine code”ALT”2001 onwards) will operate satisfactorily on E5 ethanol blended fuel(European Standard EN 228) However, E10 ethanol blended petrol is not recommended for these vehicle models as there are material compatibility and drivability issues E10 may be used in emergency situations.

Bentley All petrol engine vehicles since 1990 will operate satisfactorily on E10.

BMW All petrol engine vehicles since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on E10.

Citroen All Citroen vehicles are required to run on 95 RON fuel (premium unleaded petrol).Citroen vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E5 blended petrol (European Standard 228). However, E10 blended petrol is not recommended because of drivability and/or material compatibility issues. E10 may be used in emergency situations.

Chrysler All petrol engine vehicles since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on E10.

Daewoo GM Daewoo does not recommend the use of ethanol blended petrol.

Daihatsu The following models will operate satisfactorily on E10:Charade(September 2004 onwards), Terios (September 2004 onwards), Copen (October 2004 onwards), Sirion (November 2004 onwards).
 

cptmud

New Member
Honda All Honda vehicles should use the fuel recommended in the owners hand book.The following models will operate satisfactorily on E10:Insight (2004 onwards), Civic range (including Civic Hybrid) – 2004 onwards; S2000 – 2004 onwards, CRV – 2003 onwards, MD-X – 2003 onwards, Accord & Accord Euro – 2003 onwards.Honda does not recommend E10 for other vehicle models because there may be drivability issues.

Hyundai Hyundai vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E10, but if drivability concerns occur revert back to 100% unleaded petrol.

Ferrari Ferrari does not recommend the use of ethanol blend petrol. E10 may be used in emergency situations.

Jaguar All vehicles imported and sold by Jaguar cars Australia since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on unleaded petrol containing ethanol blended up to 10% (E10) provided the fuel octane recommendations in the owners hand book are adhered to. To avoid any operational issues, the vehicles should also be maintained in accordance with Jaguar servicing procedures using genuine Jaguar replacement parts.In general, some pre – 1986 cars will operate on E10 ULP, however Jaguar Recommends that they do not use ethanol blended petrol due to the aging of the vehicle fuel systems. It is important however that Jaguar vehicles with carburettors do not use ethanol blended petrol.

Kia All petrol engine vehicles since 1996 will operate satisfactorily on E10 but if engine drivability concerns occur revert back to 100% unleaded petrol. Please refer to owner’s manual for further details.

Land Rover All Land Rover vehicles imported and sold by Land Rover Australia since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on unleaded petrol containing ethanol blended up to 10% (E10) provided that the fuel octane recommendations in the owners hand book are adhered to, to avoid any operational issues, the vehicles should be maintained in accordance with Land Rover servicing procedures using genuine Land Rover replacement parts.

In general, some pre – 1986 cars will operate on E10 ULP, however Land Rover recommends that they do not use ethanol blended petrol due to the aging of the vehicle fuel systems. It is important however that Land Rover vehicles with carburettors do not use ethanol blended petrol.

Lexus All models will operate satisfactorily on E10 except for the model listed below.The following model will not operate satisfactorily on E10 fuel:IS200 – pre May 2002.

Maserati Maserati does not recommend the user of ethanol fuel. E10 may be used in emergency situations.

Mazda Mazda 323 1.8L(1994 onwards), Mazda 323 2.0L (2001 onwards), Mazda2 (11/02 onwards), Mazda3 (ALL), Premacy (5/02 onwards), Mazda6 (8/02 onwards), 800M &Millenia (8/98 onwards), MX5 (1998 onwards), RX-8 (7/03 onwards), MPV (8/99 onwards), Tribute (ALL), and E series (2002 fuel injected models onwards) vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E10.All of the models not listed above do not operate satisfactorily on E10.

Mercedes Benz All petrol engine vehicles since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on E10.

MG MGF 2000 onwards), MG ZT (2002 onwards) and MG TF (2002 onwards) vehicles may operate satisfactorily on E10. However, use of E10 may affect engine calibration and emissions.

Mini All models will operate satisfactorily on E10.

Nissan Nissan vehicles manufactured from 1 January 2004 onwards are capable of operation on ethanol blended fuels up to E10 (10% ethanol) providing that blending of the ethanol component to the petroleum component of the fuel has been properly made at the fuel refinery (i.e. there is no “splash blending” of the fuel).For Nissan vehicles manufactured prior to 1 January 2004, Nissan Australia does not recommend the use of E10 fuel because of drivability concerns and/or material compatibility issues.

Peugeot All Peugeot vehicles are required to run on 95 RON fuel (premium unleaded petrol).Peugeot vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E5 blended petrol (European Standard 228). However, E10 blended petrol is not recommended because of drivability and/or material compatibility issues. E10 may be used in emergency situations.

Porsche Porsche does not recommend the use of ethanol blend petrol in any Porsche models.

Proton All petrol engine vehicles since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on E10 fuel.

Rover Rover 75 (2001 onwards), vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E10. However, use of E10 may affect engine calibration and emissions.

Renault All petrol engine vehicles since 2001 will operate satisfactorily on E10 but Renault does not recommend its use.

Rolls Royce All petrol engine vehicles since 1990 until 2002 will operate satisfactorily on E10.

SAABAll petrol engines since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on E10.

Subaru Subaru Liberty B4 (all year models) and Impreza WRX STI (1999 and 2000) do not operate satisfactorily on E10.All others since MY1990 petrol engine Subaru vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E10.

Suzuki Suzuki Alto, Mighty Boy, Wagon R+, Swift/Cino, Ignis Sport (1.5litre requires 98RON), Sierra, Stockman, Vitara, X-90, Jimmy (SOHC) and Super Carry vehicles do not operate satisfactorily on E10.Suzuki Baleno and Baleno GTX will operate satisfactorily on E10 but Suzuki does not recommend its use in these vehicles.Ignis (1.3Litre), Liana, Grand Vitara/XL-7, Jimmy (DOHC), Carry (1.3 Litre), Swift (2005 on) and APV vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E10.

Volkswagen All Volkswagen petrol engine vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E10 but Volkswagen does not recommend it.

Volvo All Volvo’s imported and sold by Volvo Australia since 1986 will operate satisfactorily on unleaded petrol containing ethanol blended up to 10% (E10) provided that the fuel octane recommendations in the owners hand book are adhered to, to avoid any operational issues, the vehicles should be maintained in accordance with VolvoServicing procedures using genuine Volvo Replacement parts.In general, some pre – 1986 cars will operate on E10 ULP, however Volvo recommends that they do not use ethanol blended petrol due to the aging of the vehicle fuel systems. It is important however that Volvo vehicles with carburettors do not use ethanol blended petrol.
 

frosty

4x4 Earth Contributer
I'm glad the only thing I have left on petrol is the MOWER!! :confused:

Which stopped a month ago anyway!!:eek:
 
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