Being charged for exporting from your solar panels.

[Chatty]

Isn’t producing the power close to where it is used more efficient?
Does the grid need a redesign?
Will batteries end up catering for the design deficiencies of the current grid?

The problem is that the power isn't produced close to where it's used - house top solar typically produces peak output in the middle of the day when most houses are drawing very little power, so there is an excess of solar input through housing areas. Who is using the power at that time of day? Industry, offices, shops - which aren't located in the middle of the housing estates, so the power has to be sent some distance through the grid to get to them. But that solar output also needs to be balanced against the base load generation from the large power stations.
Yes, the grid needs a redesign and significant structural changes.
Batteries will be useful in the long run, especially for balancing out the peaks and troughs in solar generation that plague the system at the moment.

So if my street is drawing 100 amps from the power company on the existing network infrastructure why would it need upgrading when it's drawing 75 amps from a supplier and 25 amps from local solar produced power. It's not that solar produced power is going from my place to a place on the other side of the city. And it's not that every house in my street have solar on the roofs. Would say that of 20 houses around me 3 would have solar and 1 is only 1.5 kw. So would think that anything produced from them nothing would leave the street. So is there more not being told or is it convenient to blame the grid?

See my answer above - during the day when solar is producing its peak, most houses are using minimal power and the majority of grid is being used to power industry and commerce. And yes, your solar generation may essentially be powering a load a hundred kilometres away, not next door. Take a long hard look at just how many houses have roof top solar now - not just in your street, not just in your suburb, but across the entire city. And then at night when domestic power use peaks (and industry and commerce use troughs) where is the power coming from? Not your rooftop solar, or the rooftop solar across the street - it has to come from centralised power generation point.

And then who pays for that centralised power generation and supply system? You don't want to pay - because you figure you're earning your keep because you think you should be able to sell your solar generation for top dollar - enough of a top dollar to get your night time power needs essentially for free.

Everyone wants to blame the government, or the greedy power companies, but this is a problem in every state, every large city and town across Australia - regardless of who is in charge and how their electricity market is set up. It is a problem because governments across the country, without thinking, gave the public a false expectation that they should be subsidised for reducing their power bill by installing solar.
Governments, state and federal, failed to appreciate the long term grid problems with this fundamentally flawed approach. And they failed to appreciate that their subsidies on solar were socially flawed in that low income earners, renters, people in public housing were unable to benefit from these government subsidies, so the "poor" (who couldn't install roof-top solar) wound up subsidising the "rich" who could install roof-top solar.

All we are seeing now is the market returning to where it should always have been, where people with roof top solar pay their share of being connected to the grid.

 

[Chatty]

I didn't put Solar on mine to make money, i put it because i believe every new house built should be a self sufficient as possible, solar on the roof, insulation throughout, double glazed for efficiency and a decent 10000l raintank under the driveway/garage to reduce the load on the environment. Doesn't exactly help uptake if you are going to charge people extra for doing it.

So where is your battery that is charged during the day from your solar and then powers your house at night?
Oh, that's right - you didn't want to pay the tens of thousands of dollars that would cost - you still want to rely on the cheap grid connection to provide your peak power needs, which just happen to occur at night. That grid connection needs to be paid for.

It's nice to see you making an effort, but in reality if you wanted to make a real difference to self-sustainability, you would have at least 50,000 litres of rainwater storage, a wastewater treatment system that recycled all grey and black water for irrigation use on the garden, at least 10kWh or battery storage (likely should be around 15kWh) and around 10kW of solar generation on the roof.

And before you ask if we have those things - we live full time in our caravan, we use a maximum of 100 litres of fresh water a day (usually about 50 litres), we have no gardens to water, our solar panels and batteries provide all the power we use, our grey water is used for irrigating the patch of lawn we decide to keep green, and we dispose of about 8 litres of black water a day - about what you generate in a single flush (maybe 2) of one toilet.

 

[smitty_r51]

So where is your battery that is charged during the day from your solar and then powers your house at night?
Oh, that's right - you didn't want to pay the tens of thousands of dollars that would cost - you still want to rely on the cheap grid connection to provide your peak power needs, which just happen to occur at night. That grid connection needs to be paid for.

It's nice to see you making an effort, but in reality if you wanted to make a real difference to self-sustainability, you would have at least 50,000 litres of rainwater storage, a wastewater treatment system that recycled all grey and black water for irrigation use on the garden, at least 10kWh or battery storage (likely should be around 15kWh) and around 10kW of solar generation on the roof.

And before you ask if we have those things - we live full time in our caravan, we use a maximum of 100 litres of fresh water a day (usually about 50 litres), we have no gardens to water, our solar panels and batteries provide all the power we use, our grey water is used for irrigating the patch of lawn we decide to keep green, and we dispose of about 8 litres of black water a day - about what you generate in a single flush (maybe 2) of one toilet.

Having looked into it, you try and buy any suburban block and NOT connect it to the grid. councils won't let you do it. we priced up rural builds and once you had more than 200m between a power pole and your residence it made more sense to go off grid with battery storage. But you get the building approval on that. they want you on the grid and the sewerage and water unless that is not available because you are in the too hard basket.

When i build my own it will have all that. unfortunately no-one is building that as the norm, so while we are stuck in the suburbs for work and kids schooling the best we can do is retrofit as we go.

Last place was closer, full septic system that went out onto the garden, 40000l of rain water collection that was plumbed back into the house, solar on the roof. but work meant we had to move and sell that!

 

[peterfermtech]

So everyone wants to go off grid where you can't export your solar but whinges about not getting paid to export it when they are connected to the grid.

 

[Toyasaurus]

Triton,
I thought about going off grid.
But then I would have nowhere to export my excess power too.
The Tesla power wall is by no means cheap, I have 2, cost me about 25k 2 yrs ago, the whole system cost 38k.
It could be done a lot cheaper, I bought pretty much the best that was available at the time.
If I was to do it again I probably wouldn`t use Tesla, I think there are other opitions now, but I would get more storage.
The connection fee for this place is $570 for the year, That is a ripoff.

 

[Chatty]

Having looked into it, you try and buy any suburban block and NOT connect it to the grid. councils won't let you do it. we priced up rural builds and once you had more than 200m between a power pole and your residence it made more sense to go off grid with battery storage. But you get the building approval on that. they want you on the grid and the sewerage and water unless that is not available because you are in the too hard basket.

When i build my own it will have all that. unfortunately no-one is building that as the norm, so while we are stuck in the suburbs for work and kids schooling the best we can do is retrofit as we go.

Last place was closer, full septic system that went out onto the garden, 40000l of rain water collection that was plumbed back into the house, solar on the roof. but work meant we had to move and sell that!

And herein lies the problem - it's the old "poor" subsidising the "rich" issue.
The basic problem with having a grid is that if the people who can afford to opt-out (that is, the "rich") actually do opt-out, then the cost burden of installing, maintaining and improving the grid increasingly falls on those who can't afford to opt-out (that is, the "poor" - the renters, those on fixed incomes or on benefits, those in public housing, and so on). The same scenario applies to companies, with the large "rich" companies able to opt-out and install large and expensive off-grid systems, while the small "poor" companies become increasingly uncompetitive due to paying for the expensive grid system.
So, the costs of the grid increasingly fall to those who can least likely afford to pay those costs if opting out is available - and the same argument applies to electricity, water, sewerage, roads - essentially any public infrastructure grid.

What's the answer? Well, in the "good ole' days" the grids were owned by the government and provided as a public service. All taxpayers shared the costs of providing that shared grid (I'm not going to get into arguments about the fairness of the tax system here) and everyone (generally) paid according to their ability to pay. Plus, not that many years ago going off-grid wasn't generally a realistic option.
But then governments of all persuasions were trying to balance their books and the electricity (and water, roads, etc) grids were, by and large (but not always) sold off to private enterprise to create a one-off injection of funds to general revenue. So, the grids became subject to market forces. But governments realise that "rich - poor" imbalances aren't generally good at the ballot box, so they cobble together a fix where everybody has to pay to be on-grid as a way of sharing the costs of that grid.

What else could be done about the electricity grid?
Raise the tax on solar equipment? Would really only produce a short-lived revenue stream and who believes that the taxes raised would actually be used to maintain the grid?
Charge an annual 'solar tax' - along the lines of the proposed electric vehicle usage charges?
Subsidise everyone to go off grid and do away with the grid altogether, or maybe do away with the grid for residential customers? It has merit, but may increase business costs to an unacceptable level. And trust me, as someone who has had to have electricity mains relocated for construction works - doing away with the grid has lots of other benefits. But what happens if there's extended inclement weather and people's systems aren't able to keep up with their demand?

 

[Toyasaurus]

There in lies the problem, the gov`t has sold everything that was public owned, because it is a useless and can`t manage a simple business.
And of course for short term gain.
I don`t know about other cities but in Sydney you can`t disconnect from water and sewage because of a deal done with what was Sydney water.
All Syd councils signed a deal when Warragamba dam was built that they would supply all homes in their area with so much water.
That deal still has 40yrs to run.

Little John ran the scam of subsidesing the LPG systems for cars, then cut it and put the gst and levies on LPG.
That`s no longer worth having,

These dickheads can`t see past the next election, So nothing will ever be done.

 

[Chatty]

@Toyasaurus - I can't argue with what you're saying, but the Warragamba deal was, on the face of it, a sensible one knowing what they did at the time. Large infrastructure projects like dams need someone to pay for them and some way of recouping the massive costs. So surety on haviing people connect to the mains water grid was essential.
Warragamba was to secure Sydney's water supplies for the "next 100 years" - I don't think anyone back then (1946 was when construction started) could have forecast the massive population growth that was to happen, driven largely by immigration.

But yes, governments are driven by election cycles and their overriding desire (need?) to get re-elected. Back before the party system we have now, people were elected on their merits to act in the interests of their community. Now they're elected to serve their party.

 

[Toyasaurus]

How many times should we pay for the same thing?
Like dear gladis selling gov`t interests in the new tunnels for fractions of what they are worth.

Back to the solar, with a bit of luck the new tech coming along will help out the need for power storage.

My system was expensive but I had made sure I had the money for it when I bought this place.
We do have plenty of blackouts around here, so a big saving there, not loosing the fridge and freezer contents.

 

[mikehzz]

It should be written in the constitution that no government can sell off essential services. If a government admits they can't run an essential service better than a profit making private company then they're admitting incompetence and should resign.

 

[Toyasaurus]

Mike I agree,
Unfortunately it`s all been sold already.

 

[Les PK Ranger]

Coal fired stations can’t vary their output they are either on or off , gas fired can so but they are in the minority

SA has Torren Is now as out main power station, since Pt Augusta coal was decommissioned.
We also have a smaller gas fired and a back up just down the river.

We had a negative wholesale price for a recent offpeaks . . .

SA records another energy milestone as wholesale prices enter negative territory

South Australia's high uptake of renewables led to record low daytime wholesale prices in the first three months of the year, according to the nation's energy market operator. But AEMO is again warning about the implications for the grid.

www.abc.net.au

It's a no brainer with our gas reserves.

I rent so solar would not be an option for me BUT I think if I was to fit solar to a home I own I think I would just like to be totally off grid & have my own power bank.

No idea about costs(probably a lot) for having I bank of say Lithium's to store power or some new Elon Musk Tesla battery but in my mind it would be great to live totally off grid in every possible way.

I have seen some USA people doing it on youtube so I know its being done.

Check this page, it's a link to the Tesla Powerwall SA scheme, maybe your state (?) does something similar ?

Find a Tesla Certified Installer | Tesla

We have partnered with Certified Installers who are trained to install Powerwall and adhere to strict quality, permitting and inspection requirements. Find and contact your nearest Certified Installer to set up your Powerwall.

www.tesla.com

Not sure what the ballpark cost is, my son would know, he's a Tesla fan and is setup a tech hub off grid on a property north of Melbourne.
He's using a typical solar / lithium battery setup though, not Powerwall, but he has certainly got insight into the Powerwall from previous costing etc.

 

[ipch]

Charging to put power back into the grid will only backfire and push power prices up for consumers that don't have solar. For example I have solar and only pay a power bill in winter when I have minimum charge from the sun. IF I am charged to supply the grid it would then be an option for me to install batteries to store the power I produce. IF everyone did this the ones without solar would inevitably be charged more to make up the shortfall to the supplier.

 

[boobook]

Not sure what the ballpark cost is, my son would know, he's a Tesla fan and is setup a tech hub off grid on a property north of Melbourne.
He's using a typical solar / lithium battery setup though, not Powerwall, but he has certainly got insight into the Powerwall from previous costing etc.

Interesting to see what he says Les, but my research found that it's as good as 1000 per kwh after rebates etc. A Tesla wall was $13K for 10Kwh less about $3K in government rebates for me.

As is normal with Lithium, it is coming down but not there yet ( heard that before for your camper?)

Also I kept hearing that the payback is 12 years, but the systems still have a 10 year life. So you need a reason other than economic to justify one.

 

[Albynsw]

Charging to put power back into the grid will only backfire and push power prices up for consumers that don't have solar. For example I have solar and only pay a power bill in winter when I have minimum charge from the sun. IF I am charged to supply the grid it would then be an option for me to install batteries to store the power I produce. IF everyone did this the ones without solar would inevitably be charged more to make up the shortfall to the supplier.

The small fee they are charging you is nothing compared to the cost of batteries. I don’t think it will have any impact at all

 

[Albynsw]

Interesting to see what he says Les, but my research found that it's as good as 1000 per kwh after rebates etc. A Tesla wall was $13K for 10Kwh less about $3K in government rebates for me.

As is normal with Lithium, it is coming down but not there yet ( heard that before for your camper?)

Also I kept hearing that the payback is 12 years, but the systems still have a 10 year life. So you need a reason other than economic to justify one.

Every chance technology would of improved enough to make them start looking obsolete by then?

How does the warranty read on the units? I am guessing it is pro rata warranty and product only not labour to change/ install?

 

[Les PK Ranger]

The small fee they are charging you is nothing compared to the cost of batteries. I don’t think it will have any impact at all

True, it appears to be a minor clawback, but the point is it's a heap of $ overall to their bottom line (or maybe, just maybe they will spend it on infrastructure).

It's probably just annoying to many solar panel owners that saw contracts literally torn up and feedback tariffs slashed in many parts of the country.
Also now many places having their feed in turned off in the event of oversupply.

 

[Albynsw]

True, it appears to be a minor clawback, but the point is it's a heap of $ overall to their bottom line (or maybe, just maybe they will spend it on infrastructure).

It's probably just annoying to many solar panel owners that saw contracts literally torn up and feedback tariffs slashed in many parts of the country.
Also now many places having their feed in turned off in the event of oversupply.

It is a heap of dollars to there bottom line that is replenishing the heap of dollars they are not getting because you are using solar BUT their overheads are still the same because they are expected to be there to supply you when the sun don’t shine

Don’t forget all you solar people were subsidised by tax payer dollars to lure you into installing your system it in the first place
If you had to pay full freight I doubt you would see many systems out there

 

[Toyasaurus]

Boobook, The Tesla`s were when I bought mine, 1st was 13k 2nd was 11.5k.
That`s because you have to buy the Tesla bridge, which is the computer brains of the system.
You can run up too 10 batteries off 1 bridge system. 145 kwh oh my, $115k oh shit.
By the way they have 14.5kwh storage, each.
The life of the batteries is guaranteed 80% after 10 yrs at I think is 90+% depth of discharge every day. 1 full cycle per day for 10yrs.
I have never run mine below 25%, in fact now it`s set to reconnect to the grid if it gets to 30%, unless there is a blackout.
So I believe mine will last a lot longer than 10yrs.
If they are only getting 80% I`ll still have more than 21kwh.

Alby, I don`t think if there is still any subsidies on panels, only the carbon credits, not sure about batteries, I paid full price for mine.
As for the power companies they are doing far better than you might think.
Most people are getting between 6.5-13 cents a KW.
The cheapest I can get in my area is, 14c off peak and 22.5c shoulder, they are on selling solar power they get from me which they pay me 3c kw.
so they are making a massive profit for no outlay.

I was in the very first wave of the big solar rebates, 60-66c a kw. it paid for my first system and then some, solar wasn`t anywhere near as cheap then, that system cost us around 13k after all the rebates and credits. It`s still plodding along after 13yrs or more.

Hope that makes some sense.

 

[Batts88]

Most likely spin if your on the east coast but not on west coast.
The energy market here is very different to east in that we cannot buy power from elsewhere and the uptake of solar is affecting the grid here quite badly. This probably wont change until battery technology catches up.

We only have only 1 supplier in Mackay.