Another one that makes me scratch my head

FrankP

Active Member
I think you may have mis interpreted that.

It states.

I does say "vehicle and trailer combination", meaning that IF you are towing with a trailer and OVER the GCM of 4.5 you have speed limitations. NOT any trailer.

So if driving a Ranger or BT at 3t, plus towing your speed boat @1.4t total weight of 4.4t you can cruise on the posted limit (max of 110km per hr IN NSW)

Hey Joe,

I expected this argument :):)

Interpretation ... it makes lawyers rich and when we lose, it makes us poor.:mad:

But I don't think I've got it wrong.

When reading the NSW road rules you have to use the definitions it uses. The Rules say that you have to use the definitions in the Act. Link.

The Act defines GCM as
GCM (gross combination mass) of a motor vehicle means the greatest possible sum of the maximum loaded mass of the motor vehicle and of any vehicles that may lawfully be towed by it at one time—
(a) as specified by the motor vehicle’s manufacturer,
(Link.)

(There are other provisions that are not relevant here.)

Note that GCM is not what the combination weighs on the day, which is what you used in your critique of my interpretation. GCM is the maximum permitted.

So my interpretation and examples stand. The BT50/Ranger's GCM is 6000kg. It doesn't matter if your BT50/Ranger and trailer as a combination weigh only 4.4 tonnes on the day you are towing, you are still captured by the definition of GCM (which for my example of Ranger/BT50 is 6000kg) and therefore your max speed is 100kph or the posted limit, whichever is less.

And this is only in NSW, of course. Other states have different rules.

I accept that this and the corollary of the Corolla (or Mazda 3 or whatever car whose GCM is under 4500kg) and the loaded trailer is maybe not what the legislators intended, but it is what they have written.

Cheers
 
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callmejoe

Well-Known Member
Hey Joe,

I expected this argument :):)

Interpretation ... it makes lawyers rich and when we lose, it makes us poor.:mad:

But I don't think I've got it wrong.

When reading the NSW road rules you have to use the definitions it uses. The Rules say that you have to use the definitions in the Act. Link.

The Act defines GCM as
GCM (gross combination mass) of a motor vehicle means the greatest possible sum of the maximum loaded mass of the motor vehicle and of any vehicles that may lawfully be towed by it at one time—
(a) as specified by the motor vehicle’s manufacturer,
(Link.)

(There are other provisions that are not relevant here.)



So my interpretation and examples stand. The BT50/Ranger's GCM is 6000kg. It doesn't matter if your BT50/Ranger and trailer as a combination weigh only 4.4 tonnes on the day you are towing, you are still captured by the definition of GCM (which for my example of Ranger/BT50 is 6000kg) and therefore your max speed is 100kph or the posted limit, whichever is less.

And this is only in NSW, of course. Other states have different rules.

I accept that this and the corollary of the Corolla (or Mazda 3 or whatever car whose GCM is under 4500kg) and the loaded trailer is maybe not what the legislators intended, but it is what they have written.

Cheers

No argument, You have mis interpreted it. If you don't exceed the 4.5t YOU may drive to at the maximum speed limit.


Quoted for you.

Note that GCM is not what the combination weighs on the day, which is what you used in your critique of my interpretation. GCM is the maximum permitted.

Your GCM is calculated when you are towing and vehicle/Manufacturer only states your MAX GCM.
 

mikehzz

Well-Known Member
I reckon @FrankP is correct according to how the rule is written. It clearly defines GCM as a set number not what the weight is on the day. Probably because most people haven't got a clue what they weigh and a bigger GCM means the car has the potential to carry more weight. Is an empty truck allowed to travel faster than a full one?
 

FrankP

Active Member
No argument, You have mis interpreted it. If you don't exceed the 4.5t YOU may drive to at the maximum speed limit.


Quoted for you.

Note that GCM is not what the combination weighs on the day, which is what you used in your critique of my interpretation. GCM is the maximum permitted.

Your GCM is calculated when you are towing and vehicle/Manufacturer only states your MAX GCM.

I'm sorry mate. I don't think I have got it wrong ;) Look at the definition of GCM in the link I gave you and copied in my post.

Your GCM is NOT calculated when you are towing. That would be your combination mass on the day you are towing. There is no such thing as MAX GCM. There is just GCM, stipulated by the manufacturer, which you cannot exceed. It's already a maximum. Look at the definitions in the links I gave you. A weight on the day is just your combination mass - which may be over or under your GCM.. (It should always be under to be legal, of course)

The rule is based on GCM as stipulated by the manufacturer, not the combination mass on day you are towing. It says that in black and white.

The NSW RMS tech department I spoke to about their road rules handbook agreed with me, so I take my cue from that.

This is why I said lawyers get rich and we get poor - interpretation.
 
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callmejoe

Well-Known Member
From the rule book. which you provided.

(2) However, if the number on the speed limit sign is over 100 and the driver is driving a vehicle with a GVM over 4.5 tonnes or a vehicle and trailer combination with a GCM over 4.5 tonnes, the speed limit applying to the driver for the length of road is 100 kilometres per hour.

Now broken down.

However, if the number on the speed limit sign is over 100 and the driver is driving a vehicle with a GVM over 4.5 tonnes this Falls under another licence so irrelevant.

Or a vehicle and trailer combination with a GCM over 4.5 tonnes, This is whats important
It is saying IF you are towing (now called a combination) OVER 4.5T conditions apply.

MAX GCM maybe poor wording on behalf, I thought it was a simple definition. They say

GCM (gross combination mass) of a motor vehicle means the greatest possible sum of the maximum loaded mass of the motor vehicle and of any vehicles that may lawfully be towed by it at one time—It it does state maximum loaded mass.

Again YOUR GCM is when you are in a combination, Your GCM is calculated at the present time. So if you don't exceed the 4.5t your can tow at the maximum speed limits.
 

FrankP

Active Member
From the rule book. which you provided.

(2) However, if the number on the speed limit sign is over 100 and the driver is driving a vehicle with a GVM over 4.5 tonnes or a vehicle and trailer combination with a GCM over 4.5 tonnes, the speed limit applying to the driver for the length of road is 100 kilometres per hour.

Now broken down.

However, if the number on the speed limit sign is over 100 and the driver is driving a vehicle with a GVM over 4.5 tonnes this Falls under another licence so irrelevant.

Or a vehicle and trailer combination with a GCM over 4.5 tonnes, This is whats important
It is saying IF you are towing (now called a combination) OVER 4.5T conditions apply.

MAX GCM maybe poor wording on behalf, I thought it was a simple definition. They say

GCM (gross combination mass) of a motor vehicle means the greatest possible sum of the maximum loaded mass of the motor vehicle and of any vehicles that may lawfully be towed by it at one time—It it does state maximum loaded mass.

Again YOUR GCM is when you are in a combination, Your GCM is calculated at the present time. So if you don't exceed the 4.5t your can tow at the maximum speed limits.

Your GCM is calculated at the present time.

Sorry mate, on that we disagree. GCM is NOT calculated at the present time. Your combination mass is but your GCM is not. The GCM is the number in the manufacturer's specs and it's fixed. And the rule hangs on GCM.

I don't think I can contribute much more, but I hope our discussion prompts others to have a look and a think.

Cheers
 

callmejoe

Well-Known Member
I said YOUR GCM is calculated at the time you are in YOUR combination. GCM is a number set for a maximum gross which 1 would hope you don't exceed. But again the law states.
IF you are towing OVER 4.5T conditions apply etc.
 

FrankP

Active Member
I reckon @FrankP is correct according to how the rule is written. It clearly defines GCM as a set number not what the weight is on the day. Probably because most people haven't got a clue what they weigh and a bigger GCM means the car has the potential to carry more weight. Is an empty truck allowed to travel faster than a full one?
No, because it is captured by GVM. A truck with a GVM of 4.5 tonnes or more can be can be under 4.5 tonnes if it is empty. But it is captured by the 4.5 tonne GVM rule.

Exactly the same for a ute (or truck or anything) when towing. Once it is towing it is captured by the GCM rule. If the manufacture's GCM is more than 4.5 tonnes the combination is limited to 100 or the sign, whichever is less, regardless of the actual combination weight on the day.

Well, that's what the words say, IMHO.

And Joe, my earlier use of "argument" was wrong. It should have been "discussion". Apologies for that.

Cheers
 

callmejoe

Well-Known Member
No, because it is captured by GVM. A truck with a GVM of 4.5 tonnes or more can be can be under 4.5 tonnes if it is empty. But it is captured by the 4.5 tonne GVM rule.

Exactly the same for a ute (or truck or anything) when towing. Once it is towing it is captured by the GCM rule. If the manufacture's GCM is more than 4.5 tonnes the combination is limited to 100 or the sign, whichever is less, regardless of the actual combination weight on the day.

Well, that's what the words say, IMHO.

And Joe, my earlier use of "argument" was wrong. It should have been "discussion". Apologies for that.

Cheers

Once you move into GVM aover 4.5t it starts to be classed into the heavy truck area, which you'll find will have different regulations and requirements the light vehicle, those up to GVM 4.5t.
 

Toyasaurus

Well-Known Member
FrankP, I think you are getting a bit mixed up. A truck is in a different class of GVM to a ute.

The GCM is the combined weight of the tow car/ute and trailer, but the tow car/ute is the only one that is classed in the weight,
A truck is 4.5t+, a car/ute is up to what ever they classified the weight is.
The car/ute trailer combination is still classed as a car/ute, otherwise you would need an LR licence to drive it.


This dose not make any sense to me.
According to what is printed below, you should be able to overload your car/ute/trailer by the weight of passengers, fuel, water and oil.

That is a driect copy and paste from NSW gov`t website.



GCM (gross combination mass) of a motor vehicle means the greatest possible sum of the maximum loaded mass of the motor vehicle and of any vehicles that may lawfully be towed by it at one time—
(a) as specified by the motor vehicle’s manufacturer, or
(b) as specified by Transport for NSW if—
(i) the manufacturer has not specified the sum of the maximum loaded mass, or
(ii) the manufacturer cannot be identified, or
(iii) the vehicle has been modified to the extent that the manufacturer’s specification is no longer appropriate.
goods includes—
(a) animals (whether alive or dead), and
(b) a container (whether empty or not),
but does not include people, fuel, water, lubricants and equipment required for the normal operation of the vehicle or combination in which they are carried.
GVM (gross vehicle mass) of a motor vehicle means the maximum loaded mass of the vehicle—
(a) as specified by the vehicle’s manufacturer, or
(b) as specified by Transport for NSW if—
(i) the manufacturer has not specified a maximum loaded mass, or
(ii) the manufacturer cannot be identified, or
(iii) the vehicle has been modified to the extent that the manufacturer’s specification is no longer appropriate.
heavy combination means a combination that includes a heavy vehicle.
heavy vehicle means a motor vehicle or trailer that has a GVM of more than 4.5 tonnes, and includes—
(a) a special purpose vehicle that has such a GVM, and
(b) a passenger-carrying vehicle that has such a GVM.
 

discomatt

Well-Known Member
I have no clue and couldn't be bothered thinking about it because I am still not even half way through the first coffee but given Joe's career I would think he knows weights and road rules....
Just putting it out there :)
 

FrankP

Active Member
Toyasaurus, whether it's a truck or a ute or whatever and what licence you need is irrelevant to the speed issue. And it doesn't matter how the GCM and GVM are derived. It could be any of the methods you quoted, but once it is established to be over 4.5 tonnes, that is what has to be applied in the speed limit rule.

Discomatt, I respect Joe's credentials but in regard to this sort of stuff mine also are not insubstantial. I have a HR licence. And for 37 years before retirement I wrote prescriptive documentation for part of the aviation industry (Air Traffic Control). It was safety-based and had to say what was required without being open to misinterpretation when read by others. I think I have a fair ability to read a document and not misinterpret it, especially a pretty simple rule like the one we're discussing.

The speed rule applies to
" a vehicle with a GVM over 4.5 tonnes OR a vehicle and trailer combination with a GCM over 4.5 tonnes, " (see 21 (2) here.)

Doesn't differentiate between a truck and a ute. It just says "vehicle".

ANY vehicle. I used the ute only as an example because it is common. You could also include a typical 4WD tourer such as Prado, Landcruiser, Patrol, etc

Note the highlighted word "or". If the vehicle is by itself, its GVM determines if the rule applies. I'll hazard a guess and say all our mid-sized utes (and touring 4WDs for that matter) would be under 4.5 tonnes GVM and therefore not captured by the rule. All good, drive to the limit.

Hook a trailer on to it, its GCM determines if the rule applies. I'll guess that all our mid sized utes (and touring 4WDs) have a GCM over 4.5 tonnes and therefore if towing, regardless of the actual weight of the combination, will be captured by the rule.

It is that simple.
 
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Toyasaurus

Well-Known Member
Hey FrankP.

I hadn`t seen that part in your link, thanks, that clears things up.
You are quite correct.

It would seem that this is much more defined than the one I copied.
 

callmejoe

Well-Known Member
How it works in the heavy industry world, and I cannot see why they wouldn't in this case work the same method with light vehicles.

I'm rated @130t GCM @12t GVM
There are bridges out there that have a load rating. of @ 90t. So if I have 3 trailers on and loaded to 120t I cannot drive over it.
I'm now unloaded, still with 3 trailers but only weight 70t. So I can now use that 90t rated bridge.
Or
Entering a small town ship with a 45t limit. Again I'm rated at GCM of 130t but with only 1 trailer I weight 42t I'm allowed to enter.? (ps yes ,I am)
The way you are interpreting the rule I wouldn't be allowed as even thought I am towing 1 trailer @42t because my truck GCM @130t rating exceeds the town weight limit

Not sure if I'm making sense here and I know some of my previous post are a little mumble jumble which I apologise for.
 

Batts88

Well-Known Member
Yep, has to be absolute extenuating circumstances, unlike Vic. whereby you can write in, admit the offence but they will take into account your driving history, here in SA even if the copper can see that you were going downhill on a bend they would prefer you to watch your speedo than the trees either side of the road, and they wonder why there are so many accidents in the country particularly with trees.
So the answer is yes you can dispute a fine.
 

FrankP

Active Member
How it works in the heavy industry world, and I cannot see why they wouldn't in this case work the same method with light vehicles.

I'm rated @130t GCM @12t GVM
There are bridges out there that have a load rating. of @ 90t. So if I have 3 trailers on and loaded to 120t I cannot drive over it.
I'm now unloaded, still with 3 trailers but only weight 70t. So I can now use that 90t rated bridge.
Or
Entering a small town ship with a 45t limit. Again I'm rated at GCM of 130t but with only 1 trailer I weight 42t I'm allowed to enter.? (ps yes ,I am)
The way you are interpreting the rule I wouldn't be allowed as even thought I am towing 1 trailer @42t because my truck GCM @130t rating exceeds the town weight limit

Not sure if I'm making sense here and I know some of my previous post are a little mumble jumble which I apologise for.

Ahhh, Joe, I can see where you're coming from now.

And now we've gone from Speed Limits to Weight limits;)

Do those bridge and town signs say "load limit" or do they refer to GVM and GCM? Link

If "Load limit" they expect you (and me) as the driver to know the weight of your vehicle at the time and comply, which is what you described yourself as doing.

I have encountered a small bridge on a local access road with a signed load limit of 3T. I know my BT50 was at GVM, 3.2 tonne and I was towing 2.3 tonne so no-go for me because of my BT50..

If it said maximum load 4.5T GVM I would have proceeded because my vehicle was under 4.5T and so was my trailer, even though my total actual weight was 5.5T.

If it said maximum load 4.5T Gross I would not have proceeded as my Gross is 5.5T

If it said maximum 4.5 GCM, it would be no-go for me because my GCM is 6T.

That is my interpretation as a light vehicle driver. Now, I may be wrong and if I am I don't mind correction.

For you as a current Heavy vehicle driver, are there any such weight limit signs using the terms GVM and GCM? If so, how would your examples above work with your B-double/road train?

Cheers
 

cookie64

4x4 Earth Contributer
So the answer is yes you can dispute a fine.

You're so absolutely right, sorry your honour :)

You can dispute anything in life, whether you are wasting your time is another matter & SAPOL are solely interested in revenue not the situation or history of an exemplary driving record
 

callmejoe

Well-Known Member
Ahhh, Joe, I can see where you're coming from now.

And now we've gone from Speed Limits to Weight limits

Do those bridge and town signs say "load limit" or do they refer to GVM and GCM? Link

If "Load limit" they expect you (and me) as the driver to know the weight of your vehicle at the time and comply, which is what you described yourself as doing.

I have encountered a small bridge on a local access road with a signed load limit of 3T. I know my BT50 was at GVM, 3.2 tonne and I was towing 2.3 tonne so no-go for me because of my BT50..

If it said maximum load 4.5T GVM I would have proceeded because my vehicle was under 4.5T and so was my trailer, even though my total actual weight was 5.5T.

If it said maximum load 4.5T Gross I would not have proceeded as my Gross is 5.5T

If it said maximum 4.5 GCM, it would be no-go for me because my GCM is 6T.

That is my interpretation as a light vehicle driver. Now, I may be wrong and if I am I don't mind correction.

For you as a current Heavy vehicle driver, are there any such weight limit signs using the terms GVM and GCM? If so, how would your examples above work with your B-double/road train?

Cheers


Bridges are determined by a Gross limit, which funny enough is also the same as a load limit. as the bridge must carry the load.Same same.

"And now we've gone from Speed Limits to Weight limits."

Was trying to show a example that your GCM theory regardling your ranger / Bt50 is being calculated wrong.

All good but I'm out, I'm sorry I cannot explain it any further.

Joe.
 
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