Air Bags,don't Go There

billolga

Well-Known Member
I have seen four or five vehicles (O.K. to make you feel better including a PATROL for the poor paranoid Toyo mob) particularly in the Simpson & the Canning , AND ALL WERE OVER LOADED with tray backs being the worst.
 

Jarh73

New Member
I have seen four or five vehicles (O.K. to make you feel better including a PATROL for the poor paranoid Toyo mob) particularly in the Simpson & the Canning , AND ALL WERE OVER LOADED with tray backs being the worst.

Did you mean tray back as in dual cab tray back?

I have seen numerous pictures of dual cab utes with bent chassis and quite possibly over loaded usually with trailers too.

The trays these days seem to have a lot of over hang and if you but in an airbag it would seem you make the overhang leverage worse as the airbag becomes the pivot point.

Just a thought and really only applies to leaf sprung vehicles and airbags.

Cheers

Justin
 

smcshack

New Member
I've had many traybacks over the last 20 years which have cracked chassis without overloading. Just hard driving on rough roads. All of them were Toyotas. I'm not saying that the same wouldn't have happened to another ute but thought someone had to add some balance.

A Toyota Fan with 2 eyes.
 

Grumpy

Moderator
This may be one of the reasons the whole fleet of DSE Patrols across Victoria are parked up at the moment, another fault with them is the cracking of the wheels apparently and the loosening of wheel nuts due to everyday use.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against Nissans but seems there are a lot of problems showing up in comparison to other makes and models though.
 

deepop

4x4 Earth Contributer
1, Getting the load weights up there or even way over (See posts about members loaded for a trip who put their rig on a weigh bridge).
2. Rough roads (maybe hit a pothole or a washaway)

Add 1. & 2. together and maybe a bit too much speed at the time and suddenly you've put too much stress on the car.
Some people are lucky and no damage, others pick up the damage.
I think it's got to do with luck of the draw more often than weaknesses in your rig.

Seems that a major contributor so far in this thread is overloaded rigs (Do you really need to take all that gear?)

OH yeah, good thread Cruisin62 - start a jihad why don't you?

NIce to have someone in the game open our eyes up to issues a lot of us might not worry or think about too much!
 
Last edited:

Vegetoast

Active Member
I think Cruisin62 has done the right thing to post up what he did. I see some people got offended but he wasnt saying the cars or the airbags are crap. I took it as be aware of your load cause its easy to overload with airbags because you cant visually see it overloaded and he has only quoted he's experience. I see GippslandOffroad trying to defend his lively hood but I think he has taken it the wrong way too. He never said airbag will crack you chasis. he stated he's experiance of vehicle with airbag being overloaded have come in with cracked chassis. I dont beleive its a perticular type of vehicle just the overloaded ones, for him its been more patrols.
 

BUSHNUT

4x4 Earth Contributer
Hey Cruisin,

You have just made me a little nervous , I had Ride Right airbags fitted to the rear of my new D max the week before towing a Kimberly camper up to Skip worth .

I'm hoping that the rest of the truck is as strong as the motor and driveline . It has allrady been said that the modern suspensions are made more car like than ever .

My old 60 series was leaf and absolutely bomb proof, always needed about 50 meters on the undulating stuff to belt the rust out from between the leaves, then she was pretty comfortable .

Have you seen any problems with the D Max in this regard ?

Thanks for bring it to our attention .
 

cruising62

New Member
Thanks vegetoast, im not here to offend enyone-just not that good with words.
and i'm not singeling out Patrols.Only repaired 4or5 in the last 12 months
It's mostly the smaller tray backs as pepole over load the trays then use the full 3 tonne towing cap.
Had navara twin cab a while ago, the owner had lifted the tray 5" and had a fuel tank fitted to take up the void-125x1800x1200mm i make that 270 litres plus the OE tank.Then he loads up the the tray including a huge water tank ,throws the kids in the back ,hooks on the camper trailer and takes of up the Canning.
The chassis bent &cracked directly behind the cab not at the spring mount like usual .Nothing to do with air bags, more to do with stupidity .It cost 8 grand for two tilt trays to get him to the nearest truck depo and back to Melb. Then it's body&tray of and on the car bench to straighten &reiforce. All in all a very costly exersise. The wierd thing is he tells the insurance co.he drove into a ditch & look what happend- they paid for the lot.
 
Last edited:

cruising62

New Member
Hi Bushnut, saw your rig pull out of Skipworth,looks sweet. Aslong as you don't overload it and stay away from the hard offroad stuff with the trailer on you should be ok.
the D-max is no stronger or weaker then the rest ,yes have straightend one of them, but probably cos there arn't as many on the road.
We recomend to pepole that come to us with bent chassis & air bags to remove them & put in hevy duty coils or add an extra leaf & watch your GVM-most of them take our advise & don't have any more probs. Shore the ride is harder but you cant have everything.
 
Last edited:

BUSHNUT

4x4 Earth Contributer
Hi Bushnut, saw your rig pull out of Skipworth,looks sweet. Aslong as you don't overload it and stay away from the hard offroad stuff with the trailer on you should be ok.
the D-max is no stronger or weaker then the rest ,yes have straightend one of them, but probably cos there arn't as many on the road.
We recomend to pepole that come to us with bent chassis & air bags to remove them & put in hevy duty coils or and an extra leaf-most of them take our advise & don't have any more probs. Shore the ride is harder but you cant have everything.

Thanks for that, that is my next move ! Something like O'Tooles via Donnelly creek track is as about off road I would care to do with the Kimberley on, she is a fairly heavy b!tch !
 

billolga

Well-Known Member
Did you mean tray back as in dual cab tray back?

I have seen numerous pictures of dual cab utes with bent chassis and quite possibly over loaded usually with trailers too.

The trays these days seem to have a lot of over hang and if you but in an airbag it would seem you make the overhang leverage worse as the airbag becomes the pivot point.

Just a thought and really only applies to leaf sprung vehicles and airbags.

Cheers

Justin

Campers on the back of utes - watever there called - You can drop them off on there own legs.
 

Alien d2

4x4 Earth Contributer
Interesting topic:)

Just thought I'd through some figures at you that I have come up with(I've got access to a weigh bridge).

My Disco is loaded perminatly with tools/recovery gear/stove/fridge/20Ltr water/plus some more..
It sits at................................... 2.50 tons.
Add 3 passengers and day gear. 2.74 tons.
GVM is 2.8 and I havn't put the camping gear in yet, that takes it to 3.00tons with 4 people.

Now if I go a van I add up to 200Kg to the tow bar so in day mode now 2.90+tons.(rated to tow 3.500tons)
Throgh in the dogs, a back pack and fill the fridge and guees what, I'm back at 3.00tons.

Just think how much more I could get in a ute:p
Not hard to see how easy it is go over with the weights and why people figure airbags is a cure.
If it sits level it must be right:rolleyes:

I've gone OME heavy springs and so far so good.
Mmm... It doesn't flex as well. Wonder what strains thats putting on things as it picks up a leg.
 

billolga

Well-Known Member
THEN Alien d2 (Kyle), you drive at over 60 kph to "smooth out" the corrigations.;)

IMG_2432.JPG


That used to be a trailer.

IMG_2427.JPG


Tanami this year.
 

Qute

New Member
IMHO, overloading and driving too fast for the conditions are the 2 major factors in bending/breaking chassis.

There's a few salient points that haven't been mentioned here yet...

Try to keep ANY load within the wheelbase and as low as possible.

For every kilo of towball weight, you are supposed to deduct 2 kilos of load from the vehicle. So, you have 150 KG towball weight, you SHOULD deduct 300 KG off the weight you carry IN the tow vehicle. Why? Becuase of the leverage effect of the distance from towball to rear susension. It isn't so much the weight of the trailer, it is the weight on the towball. While going around Australia a couple of years ago, I met a guy who USED to have a recent model Pajero (IIRC). It had a tow rating of almost 3 tonnes but a towball rating of only 150 KG. He cheerfully ignored the second part, reckoning on the old 10% towball weight rule being OK. His van weighed in at just over 2½ tonnes loaded so he had about 250 Kg on his towball... After some time, the towball weight ripped the towbar out of the chassis, bending and tearing the chassis in the process and writing off his 4WD...

The ADR's allow 64 KG per seating position in the GVM calculations for your vehicle.

Diesel weighs 86 KG per 100 litres. Carrying 200 litres of Diesel reduces your available load by about 200 KG (allowing for the extra weight of the LR Tank)...

I have airbags in the rear springs of my Musso. The Musso reputedly uses a modified version of the Rodeo/D-Max chassis. Certainly, the rear springs and airbags and all 4 Shocks are the same as a Rodeo/D-Max. I also have HD torsion bars and rear coils. While going around the island, I had 2 tool boxes, a trolley jack, and extra spare wheel, jack-stands and a 30 and a 40 litre Engel in the tray. Probably about 200 KG there.

My van has an ATM of 1650 KG or thereabouts. That gives me about 160 KG on the towbar which means I need to reduce the load in the ute by 320 KG. I had 200 KG tray load spare plus 2 dogs (50 KG all up) in the back seat which is rated at 192 KG (3 seats at 64 KG each). I reckon I JUST scraped in... :)

I have seen LOT Sof people stick HUUUGE air pressures in their rear tyres and airbags to make it LOOK like their not overloaded... DUMB!
 

Jarh73

New Member
Thanks vegetoast, im not here to offend enyone-just not that good with words.
and i'm not singeling out Patrols.Only repaired 4or5 in the last 12 months
It's mostly the smaller tray backs as pepole over load the trays then use the full 3 tonne towing cap.
Had navara twin cab a while ago, the owner had lifted the tray 5" and had a fuel tank fitted to take up the void-125x1800x1200mm i make that 270 litres plus the OE tank.Then he loads up the the tray including a huge water tank ,throws the kids in the back ,hooks on the camper trailer and takes of up the Canning.
The chassis bent &cracked directly behind the cab not at the spring mount like usual .Nothing to do with air bags, more to do with stupidity .It cost 8 grand for two tilt trays to get him to the nearest truck depo and back to Melb. Then it's body&tray of and on the car bench to straighten &reiforce. All in all a very costly exersise. The wierd thing is he tells the insurance co.he drove into a ditch & look what happend- they paid for the lot.

Just for comparison and my own curiosity; have you ever had to repair any of recent F250 trucks?

Cheers

Justin
 

cruising62

New Member
Well said Qute.Had a toyota rep. in while back,he was looking at a Prardo i was repiaring- they have a habit of tearing the L/Hand engine mount out of the chassis rail.He handed me a reiforcing bracket specialy made to fix the problem(i think they have included that in the lattest model)
I asked him how they justify the 3 tonne towing cap. on the Hilux. He says they calculate that without pasengers,payload or fuel.For every kilo you add you should take one off your towing cap. Funny how they don't mention that when they sell them.
 

cruising62

New Member
Hi Jarh73.haven't had a F250 yet, but maybe cos they arn't that common.As it's been said all chassis bend &crack if abused
The older model F100s -if you put the bare chassis on the ground & pick up one corner you can lift it about 100mm & still have the other 3 corners on the ground.that carnt be a good thing.they are a rivited chassis & once they get a bit old & worn they tend to twist & worp allover the place.Not shore if they have fixed that in latter models
 

summerscheifer

New Member
Thanks for sharing. Many people will save a lot of time and money if those things were happen. But, if this thing goes to anyone, you could buy parts as good as new using the OEM parts. I have a ford pickup and I easily hook up new oem ford parts without a single penny for labor.
 
Last edited:

Agent 13

New Member
I had the rear left upper spring mount crack on the outer edge - I cant for the life of me see why it cracks there; pressing up into the floor I can understand, but no sign of that happening.

first happened on a halligan bay road, overloaded, with polyairs pumped up too hard and driving to hard and fast. Ask and you will recieve ;-) . Then after repair (just welded up by a bloke who allegedly knows whats what) it happened again a year or so later, right next to the original weld, again overloaded but more sensible use of airbags.

Airbags are for support for the springs, but if you pump them up too hard you might as well replace the springs with bricks. There is a compromise - pumped up just a little they will still prevent overcompression of the springs - but I have come round to thinking its pretty well never a good idea to have more than the standard 7 pounds or so in them when on serious ofroad, flexing and climbing type situations...
 
Top